MANUEL Discussion thread.

[wap]

So now we’re back to saying that manuals actually take way more mental capacity and skill as opposed to the “second nature” comments on it being “automatic” full circle

Of course it takes more skill, but that doesn't mean it can't be second nature at the same time.

[Gberg2119]

what you expected though, this topic gets argued just like this on every car forum in history.

Dude A: "Modern automatics are faster, easier, and more efficient!"
Dude B: "But that feel bro, that feel"

Repeat for the rest of time.

I think it's pretty established that modern autos are better than manuals in every way. It's purely a feel thing for people who prefer stick.

The "automatic" manual thing is real as well. In normal everyday driving it does not take a lot of processing power. I'm not really thinking about it and just do it.

[D Griff]

what you expected though, this topic gets argued just like this on every car forum in history.

Dude A: "Modern automatics are faster, easier, and more efficient!"
Dude B: "But that feel bro, that feel"

Repeat for the rest of time.

Yea … I wanted to bring some life in here.
So I’m getting exactly what I wanted. And it’s interesting to see peoples perspective on this

It's a fun conversation to be sure, I always enjoy the pointless debate. I miss the GolfMK6 days with all of the dudebros claiming DSGays were manual transmissions.

[max225]

Well today I learned that we have completely different perspectives on “safety”. You and the man from the great white north think that the added attention and involvement in the manual process reduces speeds and enhances safety.

Where as I’m thinking that the added involvement takes away from the attention needed to avoid an accident situation.

Don’t think either one is per se but it’s a very different approach.

I.e a classic car is “safer” because you’d never test the limits and probably go at or under speed limit etc. that’s not false. Where as a new car at the same conditions is factually safer … yet the new car will not be driven the same way negating any safety improvements/nannies

The outcome may be neutral but it’s interesting to debate

[D Griff]

Well today I learned that we have completely different perspectives on “safety”. You and the man from the great white north think that the added attention and involvement in the manual process reduces speeds and enhances safety.

Where as I’m thinking that the added involvement takes away from the attention needed to avoid an accident situation.

Don’t think either one is per se but it’s a very different approach.

I.e a classic car is “safer” because you’d never test the limits and probably go at or under speed limit etc. that’s not false. Where as a new car at the same conditions is factually safer … yet the new car will not be driven the same way negating any safety improvements/nannies

The outcome may be neutral but it’s interesting to debate

I didn't say that, I think the safety argument is silly and not a thing at all, assuming all else is equal. I do think that a manual can help with keeping track of your speed more easily in a high performance driving event like track or autox. A truly controllable auto that won't automatically upshift in manual mode unless you tell it to also accomplishes the same thing, but very few actually do that.

[max225]

Well today I learned that we have completely different perspectives on “safety”. You and the man from the great white north think that the added attention and involvement in the manual process reduces speeds and enhances safety.

Where as I’m thinking that the added involvement takes away from the attention needed to avoid an accident situation.

Don’t think either one is per se but it’s a very different approach.

I.e a classic car is “safer” because you’d never test the limits and probably go at or under speed limit etc. that’s not false. Where as a new car at the same conditions is factually safer … yet the new car will not be driven the same way negating any safety improvements/nannies

The outcome may be neutral but it’s interesting to debate

I didn't say that, I think the safety argument is silly and not a thing at all, assuming all else is equal. I do think that a manual can help with keeping track of your speed more easily in a high performance driving event like track or autox. A truly controllable auto that won't automatically upshift in manual mode unless you tell it to also accomplishes the same thing, but very few actually do that.

I believe you are correct. I re-read your posts and it was specifically around the conversation of the C8 when this somewhat went off the rails. You were however making the point that CAR itself not its transmission would cause bodily injury. I misconstrued it on my part and attributed it to the fact that it has an automatic.

[D Griff]

I didn't say that, I think the safety argument is silly and not a thing at all, assuming all else is equal. I do think that a manual can help with keeping track of your speed more easily in a high performance driving event like track or autox. A truly controllable auto that won't automatically upshift in manual mode unless you tell it to also accomplishes the same thing, but very few actually do that.

I believe you are correct. I re-read your posts and it was specifically around the conversation of the C8 when this somewhat went off the rails. You were however making the point that CAR itself not its transmission would cause bodily injury. I misconstrued it on my part and attributed it to the fact that it has an automatic.

It's an interesting debate as cars now have more capability to throw the driver off a cliff at insanely high speeds than ever, but also have more safety equipment than ever.

[Johnny_P]

MT certainly requires more attention. But then, potentially, the driver is…. paying more attention to driving than they would in an AT.

Circular argument.

[Huckleberry]

I prefer a manual transmission in my cars because I enjoy the experience more. It's that simple for me.

[max225]

I prefer a manual transmission in my cars because I enjoy the experience more. It's that simple for me.

Every car , even those with a great auto?

[Huckleberry]

I prefer a manual transmission in my cars because I enjoy the experience more. It's that simple for me.

Every car , even those with a great auto?

Yes, I just prefer shifting myself.

I'm well aware that automatics outperform the manual counterparts. They have in some aspect of motoring for the last 60+ years. It has only been recent that automatics have been able to match or best manual cars on the road course, but they have always been king at the drag strip, no matter how few forward gears were living in the case. The only thing I think is suspect in the manual vs modern automatic debate is the talk of fuel economy ratings, because as Chris pointed out, OEs can manipulate the newer 8-10 speed automatics to maximize efficiency in their tests, which doesn't necessarily carry over to real world results for the consumer.

My biggest struggle when shopping for a new car is finding a vehicle on a lot with a manual transmission to drive. Just because it has a manual doesn't mean I'm going to like it, and driving the version with the flappy paddles isn't the same no matter how much the salesman tries to state it is. For the longest time, I avoided VWs because I didn't like how their clutch felt. The take-up was weird to me. I finally gave them a go again when the new GLI intrigued me and I realized that the clutch issues were resolved for me. But if the car has a crappy manual transmission, shifter, or clutch, or the seating position sucks (my preferred seating position is much more stringent for manuals than autos), or there is some other aspect of the car that isn't jiving, then I will pass. I passed on buying a manual Wrangler because things weren't jiving for me. The shifter sucked and the transmission's gearing wasn't great. But these are all things where I need to physically be in the manual-equipped car to experience.

And modern cars with manual transmissions are so easy to drive. They even easier to drive than cars from 20 years ago, which were easier to drive than cars from 20 years before. The days of heavy clutch pedals and struggling with hill starts and hard shifting are gone.

[max225]

Hill starts aren’t super easy in my 2022 Toyota. No hill assist.

[Huckleberry]

Hill starts aren’t super easy in my 2022 Toyota. No hill assist.

That's weird. Every I have driven from the last 7 years has had some form of a hill assist: my dad's 2016 Colorado, my friend's 2016 SS, my friend's 2015 235i, my 2019 GTI. Even the automatic 6th Gen I had in San Diego had a hill assist.

[max225]

Hill starts aren’t super easy in my 2022 Toyota. No hill assist.

That's weird. Every I have driven from the last 7 years has had some form of a hill assist: my dad's 2016 Colorado, my friend's 2016 SS, my friend's 2015 235i, my 2019 GTI. Even the automatic 6th Gen I had in San Diego had a hill assist.

Welcome to Toyota. Radar cruise control and no keyless standard. No rev matching tech either… I have no qualms. It’s still a very satisfying to drive and I voted hard with my wallet to keep it that way.

[Johnny_P]

Hill starts aren’t super easy in my 2022 Toyota. No hill assist.

That's weird. Every I have driven from the last 7 years has had some form of a hill assist: my dad's 2016 Colorado, my friend's 2016 SS, my friend's 2015 235i, my 2019 GTI. Even the automatic 6th Gen I had in San Diego had a hill assist.

I find it helps a lot. Many people seem to hate hill assist though.

[max225]

That's weird. Every I have driven from the last 7 years has had some form of a hill assist: my dad's 2016 Colorado, my friend's 2016 SS, my friend's 2015 235i, my 2019 GTI. Even the automatic 6th Gen I had in San Diego had a hill assist.

I find it helps a lot. Many people seem to hate hill assist though.

On some cars it holds too long so you’re fighting the parking brake with the clutch. On others it releases right away so you roll into the tail gater behind you

[Huckleberry]

That's weird. Every I have driven from the last 7 years has had some form of a hill assist: my dad's 2016 Colorado, my friend's 2016 SS, my friend's 2015 235i, my 2019 GTI. Even the automatic 6th Gen I had in San Diego had a hill assist.

I find it helps a lot. Many people seem to hate hill assist though.

It doesn't bother me on my GTI because it releases as soon as I blip the throttle, which is what I do anyway to get moving on a hill.

I did drive a C7 and it had the rev match turned on, which did mess with me as I was naturally hitting the throttle to rev match on a downshift and that was screwing things up a bit because the computer was trying to do the same thing.

[Gberg2119]

I find it helps a lot. Many people seem to hate hill assist though.

It doesn't bother me on my GTI because it releases as soon as I blip the throttle, which is what I do anyway to get moving on a hill.

I did drive a C7 and it had the rev match turned on, which did mess with me as I was naturally hitting the throttle to rev match on a downshift and that was screwing things up a bit because the computer was trying to do the same thing.

Weird. I had no problems with it in my Mk6, but in my Mk7 I felt like it held way too long so I never turned it on. It also held while facing downhill which was weird. Never had it on in my 7.5 but I guess I'll try it.

[Johnny_P]

I find it helps a lot. Many people seem to hate hill assist though.

On some cars it holds too long so you’re fighting the parking brake with the clutch. On others it releases right away so you roll into the tail gater behind you

Huh. Worked great on the WRX.

[max225]

On some cars it holds too long so you’re fighting the parking brake with the clutch. On others it releases right away so you roll into the tail gater behind you

Huh. Worked great on the WRX.

depends on the car like I said.. my tdi would occasionally bog the dsg since it had the hill hold feature on the auto also.

[Huckleberry]

It doesn't bother me on my GTI because it releases as soon as I blip the throttle, which is what I do anyway to get moving on a hill.

I did drive a C7 and it had the rev match turned on, which did mess with me as I was naturally hitting the throttle to rev match on a downshift and that was screwing things up a bit because the computer was trying to do the same thing.

Weird. I had no problems with it in my Mk6, but in my Mk7 I felt like it held way too long so I never turned it on. It also held while facing downhill which was weird. Never had it on in my 7.5 but I guess I'll try it.

I didn't even see a way to turn mine off, but I also hadn't looked too hard since it hasn't really bothered me. It basically releases as soon as throttle is applied.

[Gberg2119]

Weird. I had no problems with it in my Mk6, but in my Mk7 I felt like it held way too long so I never turned it on. It also held while facing downhill which was weird. Never had it on in my 7.5 but I guess I'll try it.

I didn't even see a way to turn mine off, but I also hadn't looked too hard since it hasn't really bothered me. It basically releases as soon as throttle is applied.

I forgot Mk7 GTI’s have the manual handbrake so you probably can’t disable it without vagcom or something. I’ve got the button for auto hold right behind the parking brake but I’ll give it a shot again.

[MexicanYarisTK]

It's a matter of preference depending on the vehicle. I had a with and I had a mk7 GTI with a DSG. Now in Turkey I have a clio with a dual clutch and an Accord with the 10 speed (new accords from 2021 and up stopped manuals for good). As for GTI, I'd take DSG cause I feel like it belongs in the car. The manual feels decent, I wouldn't quite call it sporty, the shifter feels good, but the clutch is kinda like butter.

That being said, the reason why I wanna to a Supra from an Accord, when I could've gone to either an m340i and the like, one of the reasons was and it was cheaper when new. Not that it matters now when the market just loves mark ups.

I don't like cvt typically in cars I've driven, mitsubishi mirage, nissan altima, previous gen honda hrv, etc. But liked it in the cucktrek, recent civic rental my parents had while they were looking for a car, and Kia Forte.

I would probably love it best if its offered on a low horsepower car where it's actually a better choice for the purposes of acceleration and mpg as opposed to cvt. But in Turkey, some cars with auto regardless of transmission, in Istanbul traffic, the auto eats gas more, their words. Which would probably explain why Europeans still strictly goes for manual because gas prices are ridicilously expensive there now too

That being said, I'm planning on going back to

[D Griff]

I find it helps a lot. Many people seem to hate hill assist though.

On some cars it holds too long so you’re fighting the parking brake with the clutch. On others it releases right away so you roll into the tail gater behind you

I didn't like it on the , I always felt like I was fighting the brake pedal. It works well on my BMW. That said, it's a feature I'm fine with having or not having, hill starts aren't really a big deal after the first six months with a and the parking brake can be used if needed.