troyguitar wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:58 am
Doesn't the Prius do like 60 mpg city? Seems like a hybrid SUV should be able to do 40, as long as it's basically a lifted Prius.
It's not though, the CR-V is more like a Volt without a big enough battery for any real EV Range. My Volt in gas mode (which is like the CR-V all the time) "only" got 40ish in the city, which is way below a Prius despite being a similar vehicle in size, shape, weight.
The whole gas engine only as a generator thing has proven to be not that great for efficiency. That's all the CR-V uses. At least a Volt can go in EV mode, the CR-V's is extremely limited.
My guess is that the battery is just big enough to provide electric-only juice in the EPA test cycle, thus getting the 40mpg or whatever. IRL tho, nobody drives like the EPA test cycle, so the number is
Some OEMs care about real-world performance, others only care about the number. Seems like Honda is of the latter, just like Stellanus.
Detroit wrote:
It's not though, the CR-V is more like a Volt without a big enough battery for any real EV Range. My Volt in gas mode (which is like the CR-V all the time) "only" got 40ish in the city, which is way below a Prius despite being a similar vehicle in size, shape, weight.
The whole gas engine only as a generator thing has proven to be not that great for efficiency. That's all the CR-V uses. At least a Volt can go in EV mode, the CR-V's is extremely limited.
My guess is that the battery is just big enough to provide electric-only juice in the EPA test cycle, thus getting the 40mpg or whatever. IRL tho, nobody drives like the EPA test cycle, so the number is
Some OEMs care about real-world performance, others only care about the number. Seems like Honda is of the latter, just like Stellanus.
Ahhh yeah I am not familiar with the Honda hybrids other than the OG Insight which is still the coolest appliance car made in my lifetime IMO. Too bad they apparently never got better at that game.
Don't get me , stuff like the Type R and GR86 are awesome, but I find it funny they are such a huge focus in auto journalism. I get in journalism, they are what sell (YouTube viewershit, mag purchasing, clicks, etc) but in reality they represent an absolutely tiny percentage of auto sales.
Right, which is why it's so hard to bring such vehicles to market. Sales volume is miniscule, they're almost always a negative hit to CAFE (which is a big damned deal this days), and the overall development cost is far higher than it seems like it should be. Which is also why the things end up being so expensive and more "halo" like the Hype R. Which makes me even more by the GR86.
The more I think about it, the more I realize how good of a deal the GR86 is. The whole lack of active cruise and shit still bothers me but maybe it really is the answer for what I need.
2010 Audi TT APR Stg1 (sold) >> 2012 BMW 335i FBO (sold) >> 2009 Miata zoom-zoom spec "Cheese" (sold) >> 2022 Hyundai Elantra N + 1999 Miata Maacover Project
troyguitar wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:21 pm
Ahhh yeah I am not familiar with the Honda hybrids other than the OG Insight which is still the coolest appliance car made in my lifetime IMO. Too bad they apparently never got better at that game.
I have kinda wanted one with a for a long time.
It would have been the best choice for most of my driving years. I would finally buy one if for some reason I had to live up North again. with the optional AC.
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:21 pm
Right, which is why it's so hard to bring such vehicles to market. Sales volume is miniscule, they're almost always a negative hit to CAFE (which is a big damned deal this days), and the overall development cost is far higher than it seems like it should be. Which is also why the things end up being so expensive and more "halo" like the Hype R. Which makes me even more by the GR86.
The more I think about it, the more I realize how good of a deal the GR86 is. The whole lack of active cruise and shit still bothers me but maybe it really is the answer for what I need.
That's corporate America. Everything has to be a metric and everyone wants to manipulate the metric until it supports their agenda.
Kind of. Some companies are better than others from my experience. I actually consulted lawyers on some things. I never had to do that at GM.
I never had to deal with anything that extreme, so far. My dealings have been mostly with managers wanting to change or omit metrics to appear in a better light in presentations to their managers for either status updates or make promises for project timeline and budget targets... only to look like a clown later on explaining why reality didn't transcribe perfectly from their Powerpoint slide. Rinse and repeat.
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:21 pm
Right, which is why it's so hard to bring such vehicles to market. Sales volume is miniscule, they're almost always a negative hit to CAFE (which is a big damned deal this days), and the overall development cost is far higher than it seems like it should be. Which is also why the things end up being so expensive and more "halo" like the Hype R. Which makes me even more by the GR86.
The more I think about it, the more I realize how good of a deal the GR86 is. The whole lack of active cruise and shit still bothers me but maybe it really is the answer for what I need.
The lack of safety shit is the only reason I would ever consider one.
It doesn't fit everyone's needs, that is for sure. But as a driver's car? It's the best thing that exists for $30K. I would even say that in my case that covers new or used. If you care about reliability and low maintenance costs (money AND time), it is fucking epic.
It doesn't have active cruise control, but honestly, those systems really work well in stop and go traffic. If you have a manual, the best use case for it is kind of dead. It's kind of silly to put all the hardware in, and only be able to use it for following the car in front at highway speeds without a lot of speed changes.
It does have blind spot alerts, back up camera, and rear traffic alert. Those are simple, but nice to have things. S2000 has none of that. I'm used to driving top down, but in the rare situation I have the top up, backing up that thing is basically doing it blind. You can't see much of anything.
It doesn't have active cruise control, but honestly, those systems really work well in stop and go traffic. If you have a manual, the best use case for it is kind of dead. It's kind of silly to put all the hardware in, and only be able to use it for following the car in front at highway speeds without a lot of speed changes.
It does have blind spot alerts, back up camera, and rear traffic alert. Those are simple, but nice to have things. S2000 has none of that. I'm used to driving top down, but in the rare situation I have the top up, backing up that thing is basically doing it blind. You can't see much of anything.
Yep, top up in 'verts is brutal. GR will obviously have a backup cam in it and has better visibility than any 'vert with the top up.
Do you think you'll miss the 'vert aspect? I do love a nice summer night or fall afternoon top down cruise, but it is kind of a bitch that it essentially disqualifies that car from ever going on track if you're tall.
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:42 am
Kind of. Some companies are better than others from my experience. I actually consulted lawyers on some things. I never had to do that at GM.
I never had to deal with anything that extreme, so far. My dealings have been mostly with managers wanting to change or omit metrics to appear in a better light in presentations to their managers for either status updates or make promises for project timeline and budget targets... only to look like a clown later on explaining why reality didn't transcribe perfectly from their Powerpoint slide. Rinse and repeat.
Faking things for internal reporting is common practice, and usually ends up in popcorn for sure.
I'm talking about gaming the system for public facing things...like this EPA vs real world FE thing.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:21 pm
We'll see how that translates to real world.
It seems like the majority of Ford's Ecoboost line doesn't translate all that well.
Exactly. I'm super on the MPG claims for the Maverick as a result.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
I never had to deal with anything that extreme, so far. My dealings have been mostly with managers wanting to change or omit metrics to appear in a better light in presentations to their managers for either status updates or make promises for project timeline and budget targets... only to look like a clown later on explaining why reality didn't transcribe perfectly from their Powerpoint slide. Rinse and repeat.
Faking things for internal reporting is common practice, and usually ends up in popcorn for sure.
I'm talking about gaming the system for public facing things...like this EPA vs real world FE thing.
One thing I have read is that manufacturers have pushed for smaller turbo engines and 8+ speed autos because it makes it much easier to cheat the EPA tests. Basically, it allows them to keep the motor out of boost and held in an optimal gear that will yield the best results despite the method never reflecting real world driving habits.
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:25 pm
Faking things for internal reporting is common practice, and usually ends up in popcorn for sure.
I'm talking about gaming the system for public facing things...like this EPA vs real world FE thing.
One thing I have read is that manufacturers have pushed for smaller turbo engines and 8+ speed autos because it makes it much easier to cheat the EPA tests. Basically, it allows them to keep the motor out of boost and held in an optimal gear that will yield the best results despite the method never reflecting real world driving habits.
Which is why Ford EcoBoost stuff TENDS to be different test to IRL.
But I'm talking about things like changing tires for tests, changing vehicle trim mix arbitrarily so the EPA number can be applied to more vehicles, shady stuff.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
One thing I have read is that manufacturers have pushed for smaller turbo engines and 8+ speed autos because it makes it much easier to cheat the EPA tests. Basically, it allows them to keep the motor out of boost and held in an optimal gear that will yield the best results despite the method never reflecting real world driving habits.
Which is why Ford EcoBoost stuff TENDS to be different test to IRL.
But I'm talking about things like changing tires for tests, changing vehicle trim mix arbitrarily so the EPA number can be applied to more vehicles, shady stuff.
Yeah, and then everyone is all shocked Pikachu when the EPA catches on and cracks down.
I'm not surprised that these shady tactics happen in the slightest. Companies will only abide by what they are legally required to abide by, and even then, if the fine is pennies compared to their bottom line, they'll just pay it and keep going.
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:57 pm
Which is why Ford EcoBoost stuff TENDS to be different test to IRL.
But I'm talking about things like changing tires for tests, changing vehicle trim mix arbitrarily so the EPA number can be applied to more vehicles, shady stuff.
Yeah, and then everyone is all shocked Pikachu when the EPA catches on and cracks down.
I'm not surprised that these shady tactics happen in the slightest. Companies will only abide by what they are legally required to abide by, and even then, if the fine is pennies compared to their bottom line, they'll just pay it and keep going.
Exactly.
It’s like every time I see a headline that goes “Facebook fined $75 million for privacy violations in XX country” I just laugh because they’re raking in so much more than that from breaking the damn rules.
2010 Audi TT APR Stg1 (sold) >> 2012 BMW 335i FBO (sold) >> 2009 Miata zoom-zoom spec "Cheese" (sold) >> 2022 Hyundai Elantra N + 1999 Miata Maacover Project
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:57 pm
Which is why Ford EcoBoost stuff TENDS to be different test to IRL.
But I'm talking about things like changing tires for tests, changing vehicle trim mix arbitrarily so the EPA number can be applied to more vehicles, shady stuff.
Yeah, and then everyone is all shocked Pikachu when the EPA catches on and cracks down.
I'm not surprised that these shady tactics happen in the slightest. Companies will only abide by what they are legally required to abide by, and even then, if the fine is pennies compared to their bottom line, they'll just pay it and keep going.
The thing is, a lot of what's done is actually fine with the EPA, so there isn't even always a crackdown.
It really just screws the customer, like JP and his CR-V. It's odd to me that some OEMs are OK with IRL and paper not matching up, as long as the paper is great. And it's habitual for some OEMs. Stellanus, Ford, Honda all seem to over promise and under deliver, while Toyota and GM appear to more closely deliver on promises. Anecdotally, every GM product I had managed to get within a few MPG +/- of EPA rating and that pleased me. My JT, JL, and Ram didn't get close.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
Yeah, and then everyone is all shocked Pikachu when the EPA catches on and cracks down.
I'm not surprised that these shady tactics happen in the slightest. Companies will only abide by what they are legally required to abide by, and even then, if the fine is pennies compared to their bottom line, they'll just pay it and keep going.
Exactly.
It’s like every time I see a headline that goes “Facebook fined $75 million for privacy violations in XX country” I just laugh because they’re raking in so much more than that from breaking the damn rules.
Fines as a penalty for bad behavior is a joke for most of these big companies. It's sad really.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
It’s like every time I see a headline that goes “Facebook fined $75 million for privacy violations in XX country” I just laugh because they’re raking in so much more than that from breaking the damn rules.
Fines as a penalty for bad behavior is a joke for most of these big companies. It's sad really.
Just a cost of doing business…
2010 Audi TT APR Stg1 (sold) >> 2012 BMW 335i FBO (sold) >> 2009 Miata zoom-zoom spec "Cheese" (sold) >> 2022 Hyundai Elantra N + 1999 Miata Maacover Project
Yeah, and then everyone is all shocked Pikachu when the EPA catches on and cracks down.
I'm not surprised that these shady tactics happen in the slightest. Companies will only abide by what they are legally required to abide by, and even then, if the fine is pennies compared to their bottom line, they'll just pay it and keep going.
Exactly.
It’s like every time I see a headline that goes “Facebook fined $75 million for privacy violations in XX country” I just laugh because they’re raking in so much more than that from breaking the damn rules.
They really need to start fining based off a percentage of revenue. I bet these larger companies would have a change of heart if the fine was in the billions.
It’s like every time I see a headline that goes “Facebook fined $75 million for privacy violations in XX country” I just laugh because they’re raking in so much more than that from breaking the damn rules.
They really need to start fining based off a percentage of revenue. I bet these larger companies would have a change of heart if the fine was in the billions.
Same thing with individual fines/tickets. Fixed dollar amounts are highly regressive.
There was a story when I lived in Lexington that one of the arab oil sheiks would just leave his jet parked at the local airport illegally when he was in town to check on his thoroughbreds... The fine was peanuts to him compared to the inconvenience of his jet not being on the runway.
Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook have all changed their data tactics significantly in the past year or two. They rode the gravy train for a while but massive massive shifts recently. Not defending, but it hasnt been tiny insignificant changes.
The lack of safety shit is the only reason I would ever consider one.
Yep.
I wouldn't want eyesight or other complicated electronic nannies in a sports car.
I don't want them in my daily either, but if you want a newer car that ship has sailed. But there will be older sports cars for a long time given how they're treated and maintained, and I'm not buying one with sensors and cameras all over it.
Huckleberry wrote:
They really need to start fining based off a percentage of revenue. I bet these larger companies would have a change of heart if the fine was in the billions.
Same thing with individual fines/tickets. Fixed dollar amounts are highly regressive.
There was a story when I lived in Lexington that one of the arab oil sheiks would just leave his jet parked at the local airport illegally when he was in town to check on his thoroughbreds... The fine was peanuts to him compared to the inconvenience of his jet not being on the runway.
I believe Germany does things like traffic fines based on income levels. I guess the only thing in the US is that method would require actual wealth to be included in that equation to avoid things like Musk paying a smaller speeding fine than a McDonald's cashier.
for a long time.
, stuff like the Type R and GR86 are awesome, but I find it funny they are such a huge focus in auto journalism. I get in journalism, they are what sell (YouTube viewershit, mag purchasing, clicks, etc) but in reality they represent an absolutely tiny percentage of auto sales.
by the GR86.
promises for project timeline and budget targets... only to look like a clown later on explaining why reality didn't transcribe perfectly from their Powerpoint slide. Rinse and repeat.
on the MPG claims for the Maverick as a result.
