Car Talk 2: Un-American Motor Company.

[Johnny_P]

Yeah. I didn't hate it when I test drove it. But there were some things that could have been improved upon. This addresses basically all of that I think.

I wonder how bad the power will be off the turbo. In my STI it's low but workable. In my GTI it was pretty bad. In the current FiST it was pretty bad. I can only imagine it'll be worse after lopping a cylinder off. Maybe not doe with more advanced turbo technology?

The turbo is pretty simple and tiny. It spools reasonably quickly and also has a pretty short 1st gear. I've never really had much issue with "lag" in this car. It's not as bad as the WRX and that wasn't anything compared to the hopped up bro-dozers I was playing with before I downsized.

I guess just keep it at 3k or above and its fine? Basically how I drive the STI, I hardly ever let it dip below 2500.

[4zilch]

The turbo is pretty simple and tiny. It spools reasonably quickly and also has a pretty short 1st gear. I've never really had much issue with "lag" in this car. It's not as bad as the WRX and that wasn't anything compared to the hopped up bro-dozers I was playing with before I downsized.

I guess just keep it at 3k or above and its fine? Basically how I drive the STI, I hardly ever let it dip below 2500.

Yeah - I don't let it lug back that far, without downshifting before accelerating. It builds torque pretty quickly off idle up to about 2700 where it's mostly flat throughout the rest of the rev range.

[Johnny_P]

Lexus IS killin' it. Impreza horrible after 8 years. Toyota SUVs reliable long term. Generally looks like the Jap cars are better built for the long haul.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

It really is sad. The FiST was a unique offering in the US...nobody else really did a hot hatch of that size here. There just aren't enough enthusiasts buying new cars to make it worth while, doe.

I understand Ford's decision - If it doesn't sell, then there's not much point in having it on the dealer lots. It's unfortunate that there's not any enthusiast cars in the sub-compact hatch market. The original small hatches like the pooper and the gti have become bloated during the last model updates, and I don't foresee any other manufacturers offering something like a FiST in this space. The FiST was the first car I've ever owned, where I wanted to upgrade to the new one. Ford had me hook, line, and sinker with this model and they've lost me. We'll get flooded with a bunch of compact cvt SUVs that will sport a turbo in the "sporty" editions, because there's way more of those buyers than me.

I'll probably drive the FiST indefinitely until it breaks, I #yolo and buy and ND, or something as interesting as a FiST comes to market.

Did you buy yours new?

[4zilch]

I understand Ford's decision - If it doesn't sell, then there's not much point in having it on the dealer lots. It's unfortunate that there's not any enthusiast cars in the sub-compact hatch market. The original small hatches like the pooper and the gti have become bloated during the last model updates, and I don't foresee any other manufacturers offering something like a FiST in this space. The FiST was the first car I've ever owned, where I wanted to upgrade to the new one. Ford had me hook, line, and sinker with this model and they've lost me. We'll get flooded with a bunch of compact cvt SUVs that will sport a turbo in the "sporty" editions, because there's way more of those buyers than me.

I'll probably drive the FiST indefinitely until it breaks, I #yolo and buy and ND, or something as interesting as a FiST comes to market.

Did you buy yours new?

Used, so my voice is meaningless, but it goes to point that used cars can drive brand preference. 5/7 would buy again - even new this time, because I want a GD 3-cyl with loud exhaust and an LSD. As long as I can still get it with Recarbroes.

[Tar]

Sorry guys, but I still think the (2005-2008) C6 base is a great option for someone looking to spend 20k on a fun car. I mean the headlights, years in existence and front overhang alone makes it a better option then a C5. 06 has a better diff, moot point if upgrades are on the horizon, 2007/8 get fixed brakes... and maybe a few minor improvements but they also cost I assume nearly $5k because the car is priced higher. It is work spending the extra if the budget allows IMO

Anyone who disagrees C6>C5 has shit to prove.

Would I trade a C5 for a base C6? , but a new buyer would be nuts to go C5. Also, the LS2 pumps out the same numbers as a C5Z. So right there one would gain 50 hp.

C5 ----> C6 wide body is the best option, but from what I hear the base C6 suspension is more comfortable for street use and I can say its downright good, maybe even awesome comfort wise. That's still not enough of a selling point to overlook the wide body GS. The only problem is price really, now you're looking at a solid $10-20k above base prices in mint condition soooo.... you are paying a premium for that upgrade. I'd if I didn't have other obligations.

The only reason a buyer would go C5 today is they're still a good $5-10k cheaper. I also prefer the looks of a C5 to a base C6 (widebody, doe... ), and I suspect there's others out there too.

The most compelling C6 is an LS3 car 08+...and those are just barely dipping into the mid-$20k range now. Surprising how well they've maintained value. I'd love to for an Inferno Orange C6GS...and that still may be my next move at some point...but I'm too

$5K extra is a wise investment of funds for an 08. I came in lower on a LS2 2005 base and paid for the diff after the fact anyways. For only a couple more grand the car gets even younger and comes with waxables and 38 more HP.

Bean counter extrodinairs will argue that the GS is too close to a base 2014/15 stingray in price and its worth the additional price creep BUT everyone has to set limits someplace. I'd love an orange GS and would even prefer it to a base C7, . The point is that there is always something better if one has the means.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Did you buy yours new?

Used, so my voice is meaningless, but it goes to point that used cars can drive brand preference. 5/7 would buy again - even new this time, because I want a GD 3-cyl with loud exhaust and an LSD. As long as I can still get it with Recarbroes.

The problem is, everyone in the price sensitive small car enthusiast space is a expert and thinks buying new is a "waste". It is for personal finance kind of, but this is what happens.

As someone that gives marketing input for vehicle program business cases on the regular, there's no way to quantify conversion of used car to new car sales. Brand loyalty is quantifiable, but there's no way of tracking used car sales to know that someone bought a vehicle used and then bought a new one to replace it...especially when most people won't trade-in on the new car so they don't get "screwed" by the That's all data we marketing folks need to analyse sales trends and support new vehicle programs.

Further, I imagine that you're in the minority. Most buyers would continue to

This is partially why no cheap sporty/sports cars exist...because those in the market find it wiser to go used for the same price or less. Expensive sports cars sell to people that have money and/or don't care about the hit of buying new. The situation we find ourselves in is a product of how we buy cars. I've been saying this for years.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

The only reason a buyer would go C5 today is they're still a good $5-10k cheaper. I also prefer the looks of a C5 to a base C6 (widebody, doe... ), and I suspect there's others out there too.

The most compelling C6 is an LS3 car 08+...and those are just barely dipping into the mid-$20k range now. Surprising how well they've maintained value. I'd love to for an Inferno Orange C6GS...and that still may be my next move at some point...but I'm too

$5K extra is a wise investment of funds for an 08. I came in lower on a LS2 2005 base and paid for the diff after the fact anyways. For only a couple more grand the car gets even younger and comes with waxables and 38 more HP.

Bean counter extrodinairs will argue that the GS is too close to a base 2014/15 stingray in price and its worth the additional price creep BUT everyone has to set limits someplace. I'd love an orange GS and would even prefer it to a base C7, . The point is that there is always something better if one has the means.

An LS3 car is still a $10k premium to a C5. You can do a lot to a C5 to make it more fun. I'd take Camdalf any day over an LS3 C6 and it's still cheaper with everything I've done.

A Grand Sport, doe...there's a case to be made there. Looks, refinement, power, brakes, handling, orange,

When they drop into the low $30k-high $20k range...I may be tempted to do something stupid.

[Johnny_P]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/ ... rtnership/

“When we initially approached BMW, we thought it would also be aiming to have as much common parts as possible. But they had quite an unexpected reaction initially, saying ‘there’s no point in having as many common parts as possible if we cannot make a car that we each want.’

“So we decided to first have a firm idea of what we, individually, wanted to make, and based on that, we approached each other and compared to see where we could have common parts.”

Given that, we can expect the Supra and its BMW platform-mate, the upcoming Z4, to be substantially different from each other. Certainly, these cars will have a lot less in common than the near identical Toyota 86 and Subaru BRZ.

That said, the Supra isn’t a total departure from the 86, at least not in philosophy. Of course, Tada-san already filled us in how the Supra will be a natural extension of the 86 in terms of dynamics, but there’s also the fact that both are the realizations of collaboration.

So it's going to be a hell of a driver's car, an extension of the 86, but with more power? SIGN ME UP. I'm guessing the Z4 will be more for the white hair crowd and more GT oriented. Apparently the Supra will be more sports car oriented. Sounds like they'll really only share the chassis and engine and it won't be a simple badge, bumper, and fender job.

[4zilch]

Used, so my voice is meaningless, but it goes to point that used cars can drive brand preference. 5/7 would buy again - even new this time, because I want a GD 3-cyl with loud exhaust and an LSD. As long as I can still get it with Recarbroes.

The problem is, everyone in the price sensitive small car enthusiast space is a expert and thinks buying new is a "waste". It is for personal finance kind of, but this is what happens.

As someone that gives marketing input for vehicle program business cases on the regular, there's no way to quantify conversion of used car to new car sales. Brand loyalty is quantifiable, but there's no way of tracking used car sales to know that someone bought a vehicle used and then bought a new one to replace it...especially when most people won't trade-in on the new car so they don't get "screwed" by the That's all data we marketing folks need to analyse sales trends and support new vehicle programs.

Further, I imagine that you're in the minority. Most buyers would continue to

This is partially why no cheap sporty/sports cars exist...because those in the market find it wiser to go used for the same price or less. Expensive sports cars sell to people that have money and/or don't care about the hit of buying new. The situation we find ourselves in is a product of how we buy cars. I've been saying this for years.

All true - I know I'm fully in the minority. FWIW - for me at least - the price of a new FiST was within reason for me, considering I generally keep my 4 wheeled vehicles for awhile. I bought mine because it was orange, and had Recarbroes. The local only stocked theirs with ugly stripes and pleb seats.

[4zilch]

0-60 6.5 seconds, or .5 faster than before
3 cyl so it will sound neat
More power than before
Torque vectoring AND LSD available
3 driving modes
Tripoding in the promo vid
New steering wheel looks

Man. This would be a lot of fun. This is what the GTI should be, not the huge minivan it is. Hell the STI used to be about that size too, I wish it still were. The smaller older Imprezas were more fun than these bigger ones. I would actually consider getting one to replace the STI.

It’s a shame we don’t get the Polo GTI too.

[Johnny_P]

It’s a shame we don’t get the Polo GTI too.

Yeah I like that more than the Golf GTI, honestly. Smaller, more compact, cheaper, possibly more fun and rowdy. That's the definition of a hot hatch. 0-60 sub 7 seconds is pretty ideal for real world driving.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I was surprised by how "big" the Polo felt that I drove in Germany. It's a fantastic little car...a GTI version would be a riot.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/ ... rtnership/

“When we initially approached BMW, we thought it would also be aiming to have as much common parts as possible. But they had quite an unexpected reaction initially, saying ‘there’s no point in having as many common parts as possible if we cannot make a car that we each want.’

“So we decided to first have a firm idea of what we, individually, wanted to make, and based on that, we approached each other and compared to see where we could have common parts.”

Given that, we can expect the Supra and its BMW platform-mate, the upcoming Z4, to be substantially different from each other. Certainly, these cars will have a lot less in common than the near identical Toyota 86 and Subaru BRZ.

That said, the Supra isn’t a total departure from the 86, at least not in philosophy. Of course, Tada-san already filled us in how the Supra will be a natural extension of the 86 in terms of dynamics, but there’s also the fact that both are the realizations of collaboration.

So it's going to be a hell of a driver's car, an extension of the 86, but with more power? SIGN ME UP. I'm guessing the Z4 will be more for the white hair crowd and more GT oriented. Apparently the Supra will be more sports car oriented. Sounds like they'll really only share the chassis and engine and it won't be a simple badge, bumper, and fender job.

Ready to spend $50k on a car?

[4zilch]

So now the only hot hatches in the USA are:
Veloster N
Focus ST
GTI
Cooper S

[Johnny_P]

The problem is, everyone in the price sensitive small car enthusiast space is a expert and thinks buying new is a "waste". It is for personal finance kind of, but this is what happens.

As someone that gives marketing input for vehicle program business cases on the regular, there's no way to quantify conversion of used car to new car sales. Brand loyalty is quantifiable, but there's no way of tracking used car sales to know that someone bought a vehicle used and then bought a new one to replace it...especially when most people won't trade-in on the new car so they don't get "screwed" by the That's all data we marketing folks need to analyse sales trends and support new vehicle programs.

Further, I imagine that you're in the minority. Most buyers would continue to

This is partially why no cheap sporty/sports cars exist...because those in the market find it wiser to go used for the same price or less. Expensive sports cars sell to people that have money and/or don't care about the hit of buying new. The situation we find ourselves in is a product of how we buy cars. I've been saying this for years.

All true - I know I'm fully in the minority. FWIW - for me at least - the price of a new FiST was within reason for me, considering I generally keep my 4 wheeled vehicles for awhile. I bought mine because it was orange, and had Recarbroes. The local only stocked theirs with ugly stripes and pleb seats.

When I was looking for them, they were actually somewhat difficult to find on lots. But if a dealer had one it was usually black or silver with base seats. IMO that's totally fine though, because you could pick that thing up brand new with a full warranty and a barrel of laughs for under $20k OTD. Back then, if I was in the market for that or a MK6 GTI I'd have picked the FiST no question.

These entry enthusiast cars are a tough sell though. Because that same $20k OTD at that time could get you a used G35 coupe, 350/370Z, 2 year old GTI, RX8, 3 Miatas, E36 M3, etc. You had to really want the tiny hatch and FWD and tiny motor.

More established enthusiast cars don't really have this problem though. A new Mustang GT is same price as a used 997 911. But it's faster, more reliable, warranty, cheaper to fix out of warranty, more stuff to play with inside, order it how you want it, etc. So it still sells.

[4zilch]

I was surprised by how "big" the Polo felt that I drove in Germany. It's a fantastic little car...a GTI version would be a riot.

VW has always been good at maximizing interior space.

[Johnny_P]

So now the only hot hatches in the USA are:
Veloster N
Focus ST
GTI
Cooper S

500 Abarth
GoRf
Civic Type R
GLA45?
Juke Nismo

Really a shame there's no Fit Si

[Johnny_P]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/ ... rtnership/



So it's going to be a hell of a driver's car, an extension of the 86, but with more power? SIGN ME UP. I'm guessing the Z4 will be more for the white hair crowd and more GT oriented. Apparently the Supra will be more sports car oriented. Sounds like they'll really only share the chassis and engine and it won't be a simple badge, bumper, and fender job.

Ready to spend $50k on a car?

That's the issue. Word on the street is there will be some turbo 4 models below the big daddy I6. $50k though, that's in line with a Camaro SS.

[4zilch]

So now the only hot hatches in the USA are:
Veloster N
Focus ST
GTI
Cooper S

500 Abarth
GoRf
Civic Type R
GLA45?
Juke Nismo

Really a shame there's no Fit Si

Forgot about the 500. it's too small
Juke is a turd and mostly SUV
I left out the expensive stuff. In that price range, I'd rather sports car +

Fit Si

[Johnny_P]

500 Abarth
GoRf
Civic Type R
GLA45?
Juke Nismo

Really a shame there's no Fit Si

Forgot about the 500. it's too small
Juke is a turd and mostly SUV
I left out the expensive stuff. In that price range, I'd rather sports car +

Fit Si

Yeah just slightly work over the 2.0 K-series from the Civic to produce 170 HP at 7k+ or so and stuff it in there. Would be a blast.

[Apex]

So now the only hot hatches in the USA are:
Veloster N
Focus ST
GTI
Cooper S

on the Veloster N, but the others are getting rather portly these days too.

[max225]

Lexus IS killin' it. Impreza horrible after 8 years. Toyota SUVs reliable long term. Generally looks like the Jap cars are better built for the long haul.

Directionally this makes sense but I have some issues with that data also. Why is a charger and 300 not reliable in a newish state. That doesn’t seem right. Also a slightly used qx60 should be fine also.
Dat Subaru love makes sense, 0-5 years id expect no issues but these cars fall apart at 100k.

I Watched a few head gasket replacement vids, that H engine is utter shit when it comes to doing a hg job. Which is actually really involved and requires the engine to come out and nearly completely come apart

[Johnny_P]

Lexus IS killin' it. Impreza horrible after 8 years. Toyota SUVs reliable long term. Generally looks like the Jap cars are better built for the long haul.

Directionally this makes sense but I have some issues with that data also. Why is a charger and 300 not reliable in a newish state. That doesn’t seem right. Also a slightly used qx60 should be fine also.
Dat Subaru love makes sense, 0-5 years id expect no issues but these cars fall apart at 100k.

I Watched a few head gasket replacement vids, that H engine is utter shit when it comes to doing a hg job. Which is actually really involved and requires the engine to come out and nearly completely come apart

Yeah agreed on the Subaru motors.

I think the 300/Charger being least reliable is just from the set of cars it's classed in. Like, the least reliable out of that subset. Doesn't necessarily mean the car is unreliable, just that it'll probably need 1-2 more dealer trips for stuff than the others in its class. And that could be infotainment freezing, or other electronic gremlins that have nothing to do with the car's general operation.

[Johnny_P]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/ ... rtnership/



So it's going to be a hell of a driver's car, an extension of the 86, but with more power? SIGN ME UP. I'm guessing the Z4 will be more for the white hair crowd and more GT oriented. Apparently the Supra will be more sports car oriented. Sounds like they'll really only share the chassis and engine and it won't be a simple badge, bumper, and fender job.

It'll still have a BMW engine, require oil, and be expensive to own.

I'm still very on this car.