House Fire

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Tar wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:53 am

But the HVAC person installing this system would likely wire it to the panel wouldn't they? It doesn't just plug into a wall outlet does it? If so, then they need to select a breaker/fuse that's suitable so I'm thinking that there's something suspicious here, aside from corroded fuses which also should have been noted.

I get worked up about the integrity of this circuit because it just shouldn't be catching fire like this. That's not a standard I can accept personally.
it was prob. installed when the house was built and yes wired directly. If its a 12-1500 SF house and its electric heat the breaker was probably at least 60 amps-for JUST the heating coils.

Some of time they will put the HVAC on one main breaker/ cable and then run to a sub panel for fan, compressor, and heating. This really just depends on the layout and electrician tho.


Again, I really think this is just an unfortunate set of events and a cascade failure, no real blame to place. sometimes shit happens.
Desertbreh wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:28 pm I'm happy for Brad because nobody jerks it to the Miata harder on this forum and that is the Crown Prince of Miatas.
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:fax: said was I was thinking but with more detail.

We actually had a system like this at our house in PA of all places. It ran the aux heat frequently in the winter, resulting in $400+ electric bills but no fires. They're designed to run 24/7 for as long as your wallet can take it.
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ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:46 am
Tar wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:33 am At the end of the day, whoever installed the aux/emergency system should have refused to connect it the way they did. Retrofit installs require an electrical inspection, and they would red flag the wiring/electrical panel and that would need to be changed out with new 100/200 amp service. Expensive? Maybe, but not as expensive as a house fire or loss of life. Rudy's family was at risk and that's unacceptable, LL at fault if anything happened to them.
My guess is the electrical was probably installed to code, but it was old and the fuse/breaker failed with the high power draw. Or actually thinking about it, the fuse/breaker might have worked but corrosion helped the current jump, heating things up, and creating the spark show/fire. I've seen those big fuses for these systems get corroded over time, and corrosion can really wreak havoc.

An HVAC person probably wouldn't check the electrical, so it's likely just a miss overall.

It's not really worth speculating what happened, because we'll never know for sure. But it is worth all of us taking a minute to do some cursory inspection of our electrical systems in our homes. Breakers are supposed to be exercised regularly (switched on and off), and fuses checked for corrosion. If anything is wrong, call an electrician before things get to this point.

Things like this are terrible, but nobody was injured and material things can be replaced. It's a great reminder for all of us, and if it can prevent future disaster, it could end up turning a negative into a positive.

If you can't tell, electrical and fires scare the shit out of me.
The fire inspector drew the same conclusions. Overall a freak accident due to a bunch of issues that all combined to cause it.

It’s hard not to be angry/emotional but the LL is being reasonable in the moment. Let’s see what happens when the lease is termed and we need close to $5,5k back in move in costs.

We are indeed thankful that we were awake and we are safe. the smoke detectors did their job (we heard them as smoke was filling the house) but I acknowledge the more stressful/traumatic the situation would’ve been being woken up by audible smoke detectors and inhaling smoke while trying to get the kid/get out versus being awake and proactive.


PRO TIP, the fire inspector said if anything in your HVAC unit is approaching 15+ years old, you should probably swap it out and at minimum have it inspected (fuses, etc).

If our fuse was original to the system (which he believes it was) it would’ve been 17 years old.
:doughnut: :narc: :doughnut:
Desertbreh wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:05 pm DFD. The forum where everybody makes the same choices and then tells anybody trying to join the club that they are the stupidest motherfucker to ever walk the earth.
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razr390 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:15 am
ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:46 am
My guess is the electrical was probably installed to code, but it was old and the fuse/breaker failed with the high power draw. Or actually thinking about it, the fuse/breaker might have worked but corrosion helped the current jump, heating things up, and creating the spark show/fire. I've seen those big fuses for these systems get corroded over time, and corrosion can really wreak havoc.

An HVAC person probably wouldn't check the electrical, so it's likely just a miss overall.

It's not really worth speculating what happened, because we'll never know for sure. But it is worth all of us taking a minute to do some cursory inspection of our electrical systems in our homes. Breakers are supposed to be exercised regularly (switched on and off), and fuses checked for corrosion. If anything is wrong, call an electrician before things get to this point.

Things like this are terrible, but nobody was injured and material things can be replaced. It's a great reminder for all of us, and if it can prevent future disaster, it could end up turning a negative into a positive.

If you can't tell, electrical and fires scare the shit out of me.
The fire inspector drew the same conclusions. Overall a freak accident due to a bunch of issues that all combined to cause it.

It’s hard not to be angry/emotional but the LL is being reasonable in the moment. Let’s see what happens when the lease is termed and we need close to $5,5k back in move in costs.

We are indeed thankful that we were awake and we are safe. the smoke detectors did their job (we heard them as smoke was filling the house) but I acknowledge the more stressful/traumatic the situation would’ve been being woken up by audible smoke detectors and inhaling smoke while trying to get the kid/get out versus being awake and proactive.


PRO TIP, the fire inspector said if anything in your HVAC unit is approaching 15+ years old, you should probably swap it out and at minimum have it inspected (fuses, etc).


If our fuse was original to the system (which he believes it was) it would’ve been 17 years old.
Good advice.
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Tar wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:30 am
razr390 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:15 am

The fire inspector drew the same conclusions. Overall a freak accident due to a bunch of issues that all combined to cause it.

It’s hard not to be angry/emotional but the LL is being reasonable in the moment. Let’s see what happens when the lease is termed and we need close to $5,5k back in move in costs.

We are indeed thankful that we were awake and we are safe. the smoke detectors did their job (we heard them as smoke was filling the house) but I acknowledge the more stressful/traumatic the situation would’ve been being woken up by audible smoke detectors and inhaling smoke while trying to get the kid/get out versus being awake and proactive.


PRO TIP, the fire inspector said if anything in your HVAC unit is approaching 15+ years old, you should probably swap it out and at minimum have it inspected (fuses, etc).


If our fuse was original to the system (which he believes it was) it would’ve been 17 years old.
Good advice.
Indeed. I went around the house and checked everything this weekend as a result of this thread. Exercised all breakers in the box (fortunately they're all working well), checked the fuses for the furnace and AC unit, found the GFCI outlet in the kitchen doesn't seem to be working right, so I bought a replacement for that, but feel good that everything has been checked out. I'll set up a reminder in my phone to check this stuff once a quarter just in case. Doesn't take long.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Valkyrie wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:55 am :fax: said was I was thinking but with more detail.

We actually had a system like this at our house in PA of all places. It ran the aux heat frequently in the winter, resulting in $400+ electric bills but no fires. They're designed to run 24/7 for as long as your wallet can take it.
Holy shit, in PA it would run AUX heat all the time. Seems like the wrong application for that region IMO. Wow.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Yea I don’t think it’s legal to put in a system that can’t run 24/7 as it would present this very liability we’re talking about. Except now it would be directed towards the installer/heating unit manufacturer.
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ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:14 pm
Valkyrie wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:55 am :fax: said was I was thinking but with more detail.

We actually had a system like this at our house in PA of all places. It ran the aux heat frequently in the winter, resulting in $400+ electric bills but no fires. They're designed to run 24/7 for as long as your wallet can take it.
Holy shit, in PA it would run AUX heat all the time. Seems like the wrong application for that region IMO. Wow.
Still a huge part of the year where it would be better than pure electric heat alone.
Desertbreh wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:28 pm I'm happy for Brad because nobody jerks it to the Miata harder on this forum and that is the Crown Prince of Miatas.
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golftdibrad1 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:43 pm
ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:14 pm
Holy shit, in PA it would run AUX heat all the time. Seems like the wrong application for that region IMO. Wow.
Still a huge part of the year where it would be better than pure electric heat alone.
Why is natural gas so rare in the NE? It's all over Michigan, using electric for heat in these regions makes no sense to me.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:46 pm
golftdibrad1 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:43 pm

Still a huge part of the year where it would be better than pure electric heat alone.
Why is natural gas so rare in the NE? It's all over Michigan, using electric for heat in these regions makes no sense to me.
oh its not. there is a long answer and a short one: the short one is "democrats"
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ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:14 pm
Valkyrie wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:55 am :fax: said was I was thinking but with more detail.

We actually had a system like this at our house in PA of all places. It ran the aux heat frequently in the winter, resulting in $400+ electric bills but no fires. They're designed to run 24/7 for as long as your wallet can take it.
Holy shit, in PA it would run AUX heat all the time. Seems like the wrong application for that region IMO. Wow.
It was indeed the :wrong: application, but not our design choice. The house even had natural gas for a fireplace and grill and stove, yet not for HVAC, water heater, or dryer. It was in the middle of the PA gas/fracking industry too, gas was everywhere. :derp: builder/customer spec'ed out weird things, maybe to save a few nickels on the original build?
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Valkyrie wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:10 pm
ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:14 pm
Holy shit, in PA it would run AUX heat all the time. Seems like the wrong application for that region IMO. Wow.
It was indeed the :wrong: application, but not our design choice. The house even had natural gas for a fireplace and grill and stove, yet not for HVAC, water heater, or dryer. It was in the middle of the PA gas/fracking industry too, gas was everywhere. :derp: builder/customer spec'ed out weird things, maybe to save a few nickels on the original build?
thats a big :wtf: I can forgive the dryer since thats not a huge expense, but the HVAC? :gtfo:
Desertbreh wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:28 pm I'm happy for Brad because nobody jerks it to the Miata harder on this forum and that is the Crown Prince of Miatas.
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Valkyrie wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:10 pm
ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:14 pm
Holy shit, in PA it would run AUX heat all the time. Seems like the wrong application for that region IMO. Wow.
It was indeed the :wrong: application, but not our design choice. The house even had natural gas for a fireplace and grill and stove, yet not for HVAC, water heater, or dryer. It was in the middle of the PA gas/fracking industry too, gas was everywhere. :derp: builder/customer spec'ed out weird things, maybe to save a few nickels on the original build?
Oh, I know. I just find it odd because this isn't unique. I work with people in NJ, PA, MA, etc in the NE and for some reason it seems that natural gas for heating is really rare, instead using heating oil ( :wat: ) or heat pumps, or whatever. This seems to apply to an entire region that really doesn't seem to make any sense.

Like Brad said, it must be political. That's the only logical explanation for this illogical circumstance.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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golftdibrad1 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:37 pm
Valkyrie wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:10 pm

It was indeed the :wrong: application, but not our design choice. The house even had natural gas for a fireplace and grill and stove, yet not for HVAC, water heater, or dryer. It was in the middle of the PA gas/fracking industry too, gas was everywhere. :derp: builder/customer spec'ed out weird things, maybe to save a few nickels on the original build?
thats a big :wtf: I can forgive the dryer since thats not a huge expense, but the HVAC? :gtfo:
:dat:

It did result in me learning about how electric heat pumps are only efficient within a narrow operating range, maybe the original owners got sold a load of :bs: about their efficiency? :iono:
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ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:38 pm
Valkyrie wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:10 pm

It was indeed the :wrong: application, but not our design choice. The house even had natural gas for a fireplace and grill and stove, yet not for HVAC, water heater, or dryer. It was in the middle of the PA gas/fracking industry too, gas was everywhere. :derp: builder/customer spec'ed out weird things, maybe to save a few nickels on the original build?
Oh, I know. I just find it odd because this isn't unique. I work with people in NJ, PA, MA, etc in the NE and for some reason it seems that natural gas for heating is really rare, instead using heating oil ( :wat: ) or heat pumps, or whatever. This seems to apply to an entire region that really doesn't seem to make any sense.

Like Brad said, it must be political. That's the only logical explanation for this illogical circumstance.
Infrastructure is old in most of the NE, so it's expensive to add gas as an option anywhere besides newly constructed exurban mcmansions. Money vs politics is a distinction without a difference :doe:
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ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:14 pm
Valkyrie wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:55 am :fax: said was I was thinking but with more detail.

We actually had a system like this at our house in PA of all places. It ran the aux heat frequently in the winter, resulting in $400+ electric bills but no fires. They're designed to run 24/7 for as long as your wallet can take it.
Holy shit, in PA it would run AUX heat all the time. Seems like the wrong application for that region IMO. Wow.
My house is 100% electric in Delaware, which gets just as cold as PA in the winters. I installed a new heat pump back in 2017 and upgraded the auxiliary heat from 5kw to 10kw, because the 5kw was undersized for the house. This upgrade also included a larger gauge wire run because of the load increase. The old heat pump was from 1986 and, combined with the undersized auxiliary heater, the electric bills could get steep. With the new heat pump, the bills have gone down. I honestly prefer heat pumps. I leave the system in Auto, set a 4 degree delta between my setpoints, and let the thermostat switch between heat and AC as needed.
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Huckleberry wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:45 pm
ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:14 pm
Holy shit, in PA it would run AUX heat all the time. Seems like the wrong application for that region IMO. Wow.
My house is 100% electric in Delaware, which gets just as cold as PA in the winters. I installed a new heat pump back in 2017 and upgraded the auxiliary heat from 5kw to 10kw, because the 5kw was undersized for the house. This upgrade also included a larger gauge wire run because of the load increase. The old heat pump was from 1986 and, combined with the undersized auxiliary heater, the electric bills could get steep. With the new heat pump, the bills have gone down. I honestly prefer heat pumps. I leave the system in Auto, set a 4 degree delta between my setpoints, and let the thermostat switch between heat and AC as needed.
I love the idea of heat pumps, they seem pretty ideal. I was amazed how solid our mini splits were down to 0F, and I could see how a dedicated system with an Aux heater (properly sized for the house) could be 5/7. In fact, all of this has made me realize that our NG furnace is 12 years old, and I should start thinking about replacements. Our house has a ton of electrical service and could probably take the demand from a heat pump if it was viable for our house. The furnace is supplementary to our gas stove heat anyway.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:51 pm
Huckleberry wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:45 pm

My house is 100% electric in Delaware, which gets just as cold as PA in the winters. I installed a new heat pump back in 2017 and upgraded the auxiliary heat from 5kw to 10kw, because the 5kw was undersized for the house. This upgrade also included a larger gauge wire run because of the load increase. The old heat pump was from 1986 and, combined with the undersized auxiliary heater, the electric bills could get steep. With the new heat pump, the bills have gone down. I honestly prefer heat pumps. I leave the system in Auto, set a 4 degree delta between my setpoints, and let the thermostat switch between heat and AC as needed.
I love the idea of heat pumps, they seem pretty ideal. I was amazed how solid our mini splits were down to 0F, and I could see how a dedicated system with an Aux heater (properly sized for the house) could be 5/7. In fact, all of this has made me realize that our NG furnace is 12 years old, and I should start thinking about replacements. Our house has a ton of electrical service and could probably take the demand from a heat pump if it was viable for our house. The furnace is supplementary to our gas stove heat anyway.
It really depends on how cold your area gets. There aren't too many days in Delaware where it gets below 0F. We'll see single digits in January/February some times, but typically the teens is where things usually drop to at the peak of winter. My house has four sources for heat: heat pump, aux heat pack, baseboard heaters that can be manually turned on (except for two of the bedrooms where those circuits were stolen for the garage :hue:), and a wood stove. The baseboard heaters kill the electric bill more than anything because the house is a raised ranch and the living room and the wife's office are partially below grade, so she always has those at least one of those bad boys going. I should install a split system down there.
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razr390 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:08 am So, on October 30 we wrote to LL because the air conditioner wasn't, well, conditioning. This time it was cooler out so we realized that while it stopped blowing cold, it also wouldn't blow hot. LL calls home warranty company, they send a tech out, states unit needs to be replaced because the outdoor unit and indoor unit are mismatched, and it has a coil leak. COOL. Then 2 weeks later we get this major nasty weather including cold front (talking like high 30's low 40's LOWS and mid 50's HIGHS in San Antonio, and CLOUDY/grey all day. At night we would need heat and the LL said "oh the system has emergency/auxiliary heat, look for that option."

House had a Nest thermostat and I googled how to access that function. "Auxiliary heat lockout, the thermostat will determine when to turn it on based on aLgOrIthM" fine. So we turned the heat on. Eventually, the system turns on the auxiliary heat function, and it worked! However, it would require the system to run for some time doing "nothing" trying to convince the heat pump to work. Once it tries long enough with no change in thermostat temp, it kicks on the heat.

A few nights of that, and then comes the night of 11/22. We put kiddo to sleep. One cat was upstairs in our bed (his nightly ritual) and he waits for us to come to bed. Other cat was with us downstairs and we decided to watch Elf. Normally after I put kiddo to sleep, my wife either works on her craft stuff or she goes downstairs to chill. I usually "wait for kiddo to fall asleep" in our bed, and sometimes that ends up with me falling asleep too.

Anyways, we are sitting on couch watching movie, eating some food, and then we hear what I can describe as a popcorn noise. I thought it was the cat fucking up the carpet upstairs, and then our cat with us BOLTS UP from laying down, LASER focuses on the stairs, and SPRINTS up. I think they're gonna go fight and wake the kiddo, so I run after her.

I get to the top of the stairs and I hear the popping sound and I don't see any of the cats. I look across the loft at the back wall of it and see sparks/flashing behind the door (through the gaps of the door) and I am like "OH, FUCKIN.. NOPE" yell downstairs "BABE CALL 911, THERE'S A FIRE" and then I get the kiddo (she was scared by being woken up, but not due to smoke/fire) and ran downstairs. Wife in her adrenaline brings me a pot of water and I said THAT WON'T HELP. She calls 911, tells them our address, we open the garage door in case we need to get the car out, and she waits outside with kiddo.

I run back in to get our fire suppression/extinguisher (its one of those spray ones, mostly for kitchen fires, but my instincts/adrenaline just takes me to where they're at) and I try to go upstairs to find the cats, realize I should probably not touch the door knob/open the door barehanded so I go back downstairs to get oven mitt, and then I go back upstairs and there's smoke now filling the entire second floor/loft. Look under bed for cats, can't find them. Go downstairs and wife is just distraught worried about the cats... I go up once more and realize that I cannot see my hand if I held it a few inches in front of me. I prayed that their self-preservation instincts keep them low.

Fire department responds in under 5 minutes, which we are so thankful for. They go and do their thing. The final determination was that the power supply box leading to the air handler unit in the HVAC closet might've shorted, but that's just at a quick glance. They won't fully inspect the unit or do forensics at the lab. Investigator said if it was running aux/electrical or running for longer (aka heat pump failure to turn on auxiliary heat) it could've contributed to overloading/working the power supply box; if the fuse was original they just erode/chip/etc. over time so it probably was literally flinging lightning bolts inside the supply box, melted and caught fire.

The fire itself was mostly contained to the HVAC closet and the 4 walls that connect to other parts of the house (specifically one wall of our master closet, two to an adjacent bedroom which is my wife's office, and then the loft wall. Whatever wasn't damaged by the fire was completely damaged by the smoke, or the water from the firefighting. Every air vent on 2nd floor was also smashed to ensure heat/flame wasn't spreading. House is completely fucked. FD estimated $60-80k+ in damages. Inspector/adjuster said probably more.

We are in a hotel (well, wife and kiddo went to Florida but will come back soon) until 12/15, our renter's insurance paid us out right away (thank god) and we are now just going day by day to salvage what we can. We are obviously breaking the lease (well, mutually) and getting our deposit/move in costs minus the first month back. We also found a new place like 6 houses away in the same neighborhood to rent and are in the application process of it. Cats are fine, we found them once the fire was out, cleverly hiding in full self preservation mode. One of them smelled like BBQ for a few days.

I have a junk hauler contact who is taking whatever is unsalvageable in his trailer and takes it to the dump for like $60. Returned the couch to Costco for our money back, and just saving whatever we can and packing it in those heavy duty Costco containers. Clothes will be washed at some point, but not right now.

What a mess. This was an accident, but we are still obviously at some point upset with LL because this issue took so long that once they would've replaced the unit it might not have happened. We just want to move into the new place and settle in before we even dedicate more braincells to trying to figure out what we could do legally beyond it.
Glad you're okay.

I dealt with a house fire once, which was the result of my sister taking some bagels out of the toaster oven and putting the over mitt back into the drawer. An ember or something was on the mitt and ignited the drawer. The fire was contained in the kitchen (that single drawer, really) but we were told was seconds away from spreading to the wall and igniting the house. The end result was a brand new kitchen because the insurance company couldn't get cabinets to match, and everything needed to be cleaned or inspected. Basically, if it was fabric, it had to be cleaned, and if it was electronic, you had to test it to verify that the smoke didn't screw it up.
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Valkyrie wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:43 pm
ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:38 pm
Oh, I know. I just find it odd because this isn't unique. I work with people in NJ, PA, MA, etc in the NE and for some reason it seems that natural gas for heating is really rare, instead using heating oil ( :wat: ) or heat pumps, or whatever. This seems to apply to an entire region that really doesn't seem to make any sense.

Like Brad said, it must be political. That's the only logical explanation for this illogical circumstance.
Infrastructure is old in most of the NE, so it's expensive to add gas as an option anywhere besides newly constructed exurban mcmansions. Money vs politics is a distinction without a difference :doe:
yes. basically, democrats, who mostly run shit up there, won't approve expansion of various infrastructure projects for various reasons that tend to change every few years. End result: shit dont get built and the prices for existing continue to the stratosphere.
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ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:38 pm
Valkyrie wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:10 pm

It was indeed the :wrong: application, but not our design choice. The house even had natural gas for a fireplace and grill and stove, yet not for HVAC, water heater, or dryer. It was in the middle of the PA gas/fracking industry too, gas was everywhere. :derp: builder/customer spec'ed out weird things, maybe to save a few nickels on the original build?
Oh, I know. I just find it odd because this isn't unique. I work with people in NJ, PA, MA, etc in the NE and for some reason it seems that natural gas for heating is really rare, instead using heating oil ( :wat: ) or heat pumps, or whatever. This seems to apply to an entire region that really doesn't seem to make any sense.

Like Brad said, it must be political. That's the only logical explanation for this illogical circumstance.
Older towns or more remote areas don’t always have NG distribution systems. The major population centers do but there’s still a sizable amount of households that use oil for heating. Like 10% I think.

Probably because NG wasn’t super cost competitive with oil until the 2000s with the Marcellus Shale find and wasn’t as widely available. Now it’s a lot cheaper so it makes the conversion from oil to NG have a shorter payoff. But many probably still can’t afford the upgrade. If NG wasn’t available when the home was built then it was oil or electric. Then NG mains are installed gradually and people might tap in for water heaters and stoves as they’re cheap. But the home heat conversion costs a lot more.

Infrastructure here is old Af.
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Desertbreh
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Johnny_P wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:47 am
ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:38 pm
Oh, I know. I just find it odd because this isn't unique. I work with people in NJ, PA, MA, etc in the NE and for some reason it seems that natural gas for heating is really rare, instead using heating oil ( :wat: ) or heat pumps, or whatever. This seems to apply to an entire region that really doesn't seem to make any sense.

Like Brad said, it must be political. That's the only logical explanation for this illogical circumstance.
Older towns or more remote areas don’t always have NG distribution systems. The major population centers do but there’s still a sizable amount of households that use oil for heating. Like 10% I think.

Probably because NG wasn’t super cost competitive with oil until the 2000s with the Marcellus Shale find and wasn’t as widely available. Now it’s a lot cheaper so it makes the conversion from oil to NG have a shorter payoff. But many probably still can’t afford the upgrade. If NG wasn’t available when the home was built then it was oil or electric. Then NG mains are installed gradually and people might tap in for water heaters and stoves as they’re cheap. But the home heat conversion costs a lot more.

Infrastructure here is old Af.
https://geology.com/articles/marcellus-shale.shtml

TY for teaching me something today.
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Johnny_P wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:21 pm Earn it and burn it, Val.
max225 wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm Yes it's a cool car. But prepare the lube/sawdust.
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Johnny_P wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:47 am
ChrisoftheNorth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:38 pm
Oh, I know. I just find it odd because this isn't unique. I work with people in NJ, PA, MA, etc in the NE and for some reason it seems that natural gas for heating is really rare, instead using heating oil ( :wat: ) or heat pumps, or whatever. This seems to apply to an entire region that really doesn't seem to make any sense.

Like Brad said, it must be political. That's the only logical explanation for this illogical circumstance.
Older towns or more remote areas don’t always have NG distribution systems. The major population centers do but there’s still a sizable amount of households that use oil for heating. Like 10% I think.

Probably because NG wasn’t super cost competitive with oil until the 2000s with the Marcellus Shale find and wasn’t as widely available. Now it’s a lot cheaper so it makes the conversion from oil to NG have a shorter payoff. But many probably still can’t afford the upgrade. If NG wasn’t available when the home was built then it was oil or electric. Then NG mains are installed gradually and people might tap in for water heaters and stoves as they’re cheap. But the home heat conversion costs a lot more.

Infrastructure here is old Af.
Our house has electric only and I called the gas company to see about getting it added (most homes on our street already do and ours was originally built with it). It was around $6k just to get gas to the home, that plus a new HVAC system would probably run over $20k, I can certainly see that not being palatable for most.

I had actually never heard of heating oil until joining DFD, having only lived in NC and FL it’s very uncommon.
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They are banning natural gas in homes in Cali! Because it makes more sense to use natural gas to power 70% of our power plants then transmit it 100s of miles to homes and get 20-40% losses … and then have another 20-30% losses through an electric heater or a heat pump.

Thus saving the planet for your future homeless
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max225 wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:44 pm They are banning natural gas in homes in Cali! Because it makes more sense to use natural gas to power 70% of our power plants then transmit it 100s of miles to homes and get 20-40% losses … and then have another 20-30% losses through an electric heater or a heat pump.

Thus saving the planet for your future homeless
this guy gets it
Desertbreh wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:28 pm I'm happy for Brad because nobody jerks it to the Miata harder on this forum and that is the Crown Prince of Miatas.
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