MANUEL Discussion thread.

[max225]

I did think of another reason and I know I'll get made fun of for this one, but I imagine I'm not the only one. It's image. We as humans all strive to be interesting, unique, memorable, likeable, whatever. This manifests in many ways, for some people they take a lot of pride in the watch they wear, the job they have, we all have a long list. I know but I find a tiny bit of satisfaction when someone gets in my car and they're like 'oh wow, you drive a manual every day?' I'd say at least 90% of people notice and make a point to ask about it.

I think this is the first one you posted that I’d agree with.

Also an “anti theft” device also apparently.

[max225]

Would a manual make it better ?

Probably not and that's why I doubt a C8 is really that much fun as a street car. Like I mentioned, on a track or true high performance driving scenario, an auto that actually listens to inputs from the paddles, holds gears, and shifts quickly would be just as fun. Street driving is boring so the makes it entertaining. I think stuff like C8 Corvettes are just too fast and capable to get anywhere near the threshold of fun on normal roads most people have access to. Hell, even on canyon roads, it's I could certainly see killing myself on something like Tail of the Dragon much more quickly in a car with that kind of power. I would love to give a C8 a go around VIR or something, but outside of that I'm not all that interested. It's an amazing car but pretty pointless for me.

I like driving and 95% of what I do is just putzing around where drama/involvement/engagement far trumps performance to make things entertaining.

Driving a sports car opens up a different can of worms at least around here. You have to be mindful of roads/potholes/steep inclines at all times. It keeps things quite “entertaining” I’d say. My buddy just popped his 5th tire in 2 years, that’s what driving like a does here.

I don’t think having a manual is beneficial in a modern sports car at all if they can be equipped with a great auto, matter of fact I think it makes it more dangerous.
If you can’t handle a cars limit and decide “kill yourself” on public streets you’re way more likely to do it in a manual. Imo

[wap]

100% the only reason I went DSG was because of

drives your car ? You’ve not mentioned it once

She drove my Mk6 a lot. When we road trip we usually share driving duties. TBH she hasn't actually driven the Mk7.5 yet but we haven't taken any long trips in it yet (fuck you covid). But we wanted cars that she could drive in case I got sick or or her car was in the shop, etc. If I ever got a third/toy car ( ) it would most definitely be .

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Probably not and that's why I doubt a C8 is really that much fun as a street car. Like I mentioned, on a track or true high performance driving scenario, an auto that actually listens to inputs from the paddles, holds gears, and shifts quickly would be just as fun. Street driving is boring so the makes it entertaining. I think stuff like C8 Corvettes are just too fast and capable to get anywhere near the threshold of fun on normal roads most people have access to. Hell, even on canyon roads, it's I could certainly see killing myself on something like Tail of the Dragon much more quickly in a car with that kind of power. I would love to give a C8 a go around VIR or something, but outside of that I'm not all that interested. It's an amazing car but pretty pointless for me.

I like driving and 95% of what I do is just putzing around where drama/involvement/engagement far trumps performance to make things entertaining.

Driving a sports car opens up a different can of worms at least around here. You have to be mindful of roads/potholes/steep inclines at all times. It keeps things quite “entertaining” I’d say. My buddy just popped his 5th tire in 2 years, that’s what driving like a does here.

I don’t think having a manual is beneficial in a modern sports car at all if they can be equipped with a great auto, matter of fact I think it makes it more dangerous.
If you can’t handle a cars limit and decide “kill yourself” on public streets you’re way more likely to do it in a manual. Imo

Counter point...it's harder to go fast in a so it's easier to get beyond your limits in an auto car. I find the need to shift with your leg involved keeps you more aware of speed, and you'll reconsider an upshift to keep going faster vs an auto that just rips through gears ZFG.

In fact, I think the switch to auto in sports cars makes them even more dangerous because crazy speed is accessible to any

[max225]

drives your car ? You’ve not mentioned it once

She drove my Mk6 a lot. When we road trip we usually share driving duties. TBH she hasn't actually driven the Mk7.5 yet but we haven't taken any long trips in it yet (fuck you covid). But we wanted cars that she could drive in case I got sick or or her car was in the shop, etc. If I ever got a third/toy car ( ) it would most definitely be .

You’d think you travel more via car during covid ? We were stuck doing a honeymoon that way lol.

My woman can’t drive the taco yet but wants to learn… so far we got the first to second gear shift down… she is pretty decent surprisingly but it’s a long road.

[max225]

Driving a sports car opens up a different can of worms at least around here. You have to be mindful of roads/potholes/steep inclines at all times. It keeps things quite “entertaining” I’d say. My buddy just popped his 5th tire in 2 years, that’s what driving like a does here.

I don’t think having a manual is beneficial in a modern sports car at all if they can be equipped with a great auto, matter of fact I think it makes it more dangerous.
If you can’t handle a cars limit and decide “kill yourself” on public streets you’re way more likely to do it in a manual. Imo

Counter point...it's harder to go fast in a so it's easier to get beyond your limits in an auto car. I find the need to shift with your leg involved keeps you more aware of speed, and you'll reconsider an upshift to keep going faster vs an auto that just rips through gears ZFG.

In fact, I think the switch to auto in sports cars makes them even more dangerous because crazy speed is accessible to any

On a canyon road where you’re most likely to crash vs a straight line, most sports cars are probably 2x the speed limit at the top of 2nd with 0 need to shift.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Counter point...it's harder to go fast in a so it's easier to get beyond your limits in an auto car. I find the need to shift with your leg involved keeps you more aware of speed, and you'll reconsider an upshift to keep going faster vs an auto that just rips through gears ZFG.

In fact, I think the switch to auto in sports cars makes them even more dangerous because crazy speed is accessible to any

On a canyon road where you’re most likely to crash vs a straight line, most sports cars are probably 2x the speed limit at the top of 2nd with 0 need to shift.

An auto car will shift itself, and if it has 10 freaking gears, it's going to be shifting often. One gear won't cut it there, and it'll be going from 2-5 probably.

When I used to hammer canyon roads, I'd just leave most cars (5 speeds) in 2nd the entire time and never shift. If I needed to shift to 3rd, I'd only do so when I had excellent visibility ahead. I let the rev limited keep my speed in check most of the time, and it made it easier.

It's really dependent on the driver IMO. But I see absolutely nothing more dangerous about a vs. an auto.

[max225]

On a canyon road where you’re most likely to crash vs a straight line, most sports cars are probably 2x the speed limit at the top of 2nd with 0 need to shift.

An auto car will shift itself, and if it has 10 freaking gears, it's going to be shifting often. One gear won't cut it there, and it'll be going from 2-5 probably.

When I used to hammer canyon roads, I'd just leave most cars (5 speeds) in 2nd the entire time and never shift. If I needed to shift to 3rd, I'd only do so when I had excellent visibility ahead. I let the rev limited keep my speed in check most of the time, and it made it easier.

It's really dependent on the driver IMO. But I see absolutely nothing more dangerous about a vs. an auto.

I see nothing more dangerous about an auto.

Autotragics making a car more dangerous is like saying having abs makes a car more dangerous. Since computers determine the optimal braking distance where as foot modulation would make me go slower due to increased braking distances.

[wap]

She drove my Mk6 a lot. When we road trip we usually share driving duties. TBH she hasn't actually driven the Mk7.5 yet but we haven't taken any long trips in it yet (fuck you covid). But we wanted cars that she could drive in case I got sick or or her car was in the shop, etc. If I ever got a third/toy car ( ) it would most definitely be .

You’d think you travel more via car during covid ? We were stuck doing a honeymoon that way lol.

My woman can’t drive the taco yet but wants to learn… so far we got the first to second gear shift down… she is pretty decent surprisingly but it’s a long road.

With many hotels and points of interest and restaurants closed or just doing take-out where would we go? We did end up doing a 1,000 mile circumnavigation of Illinois which was pretty fun. We mostly hit state parks and whatnot and found hotels that were open and got take-out and ate in our hotels. I did all the driving because it wasn't that long of a trip.

I tried teaching mine le steek in my Scirocco but she she just got and and out after the first lesson.

[D Griff]

Probably not and that's why I doubt a C8 is really that much fun as a street car. Like I mentioned, on a track or true high performance driving scenario, an auto that actually listens to inputs from the paddles, holds gears, and shifts quickly would be just as fun. Street driving is boring so the makes it entertaining. I think stuff like C8 Corvettes are just too fast and capable to get anywhere near the threshold of fun on normal roads most people have access to. Hell, even on canyon roads, it's I could certainly see killing myself on something like Tail of the Dragon much more quickly in a car with that kind of power. I would love to give a C8 a go around VIR or something, but outside of that I'm not all that interested. It's an amazing car but pretty pointless for me.

I like driving and 95% of what I do is just putzing around where drama/involvement/engagement far trumps performance to make things entertaining.

Driving a sports car opens up a different can of worms at least around here. You have to be mindful of roads/potholes/steep inclines at all times. It keeps things quite “entertaining” I’d say. My buddy just popped his 5th tire in 2 years, that’s what driving like a does here.

I don’t think having a manual is beneficial in a modern sports car at all if they can be equipped with a great auto, matter of fact I think it makes it more dangerous.
If you can’t handle a cars limit and decide “kill yourself” on public streets you’re way more likely to do it in a manual. Imo

I'm not arguing the safety of one versus the other, I don't really think either one could be proven on any kind of factual basis.

I'm just stating that FOR ME, a car that is literally unusable at more than 50% of it's capabilities in a safe manner (whether that be safe from personal injury or the law) is that fun. To me, approaching the limits, being involved mechanically, and improving skills are the entertaining parts of driving, so a manual plays into that as does the type of car where a manual makes sense (let's call it sub 400 HP).

'Fun' is a totally subjective thing for each individual and that's why this thread (and topic in general) can and will be debated endlessly with no real agreeance. I will be the first to admit that in 9/10 modern cars, the manual is objectively worse in every way and yet you won't find me driving an auto until I have to, it's just something I enjoy.

Mechanical watches like Valerie stated, music on vinyl, paper books versus e-readers - there are countless analogous dumb old things people enjoy because they're cool and tactile while they are objectively far worse.

Don't you own a Rolex? I'm assuming all of them are mechanical (admittedly I don't know much about watches), so it's objectively worse at keeping time than a Citizen, but almost everyone would rather have it because it's fun and cool to them.

[D Griff]

You’d think you travel more via car during covid ? We were stuck doing a honeymoon that way lol.

My woman can’t drive the taco yet but wants to learn… so far we got the first to second gear shift down… she is pretty decent surprisingly but it’s a long road.

With many hotels and points of interest and restaurants closed or just doing take-out where would we go? We did end up doing a 1,000 mile circumnavigation of Illinois which was pretty fun. We mostly hit state parks and whatnot and found hotels that were open and got take-out and ate in our hotels. I did all the driving because it wasn't that long of a trip.

I tried teaching mine le steek in my Scirocco but she she just got and and out after the first lesson.

We went cross country in 2020

We did have to sort of picnic most of the meals as it was too cold to dine outside, but other than that it was 5/7. We're more National Park/Forest people than museum people

My hates despite being fairly proficient, I guess I'm just not as nice and tell her tough shit, I'm doing it anyway. It's occasionally annoying that we can't swap cars but now that she will be working remote 50+% of the time that sort of goes out the window.

[wap]

With many hotels and points of interest and restaurants closed or just doing take-out where would we go? We did end up doing a 1,000 mile circumnavigation of Illinois which was pretty fun. We mostly hit state parks and whatnot and found hotels that were open and got take-out and ate in our hotels. I did all the driving because it wasn't that long of a trip.

I tried teaching mine le steek in my Scirocco but she she just got and and out after the first lesson.

We went cross country in 2020

We did have to sort of picnic most of the meals as it was too cold to dine outside, but other than that it was 5/7. We're more National Park/Forest people than museum people

My hates despite being fairly proficient, I guess I'm just not as nice and tell her tough shit, I'm doing it anyway. It's occasionally annoying that we can't swap cars but now that she will be working remote 50+% of the time that sort of goes out the window.

Yeah, we did state/nat'l parks, too, as noted.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

An auto car will shift itself, and if it has 10 freaking gears, it's going to be shifting often. One gear won't cut it there, and it'll be going from 2-5 probably.

When I used to hammer canyon roads, I'd just leave most cars (5 speeds) in 2nd the entire time and never shift. If I needed to shift to 3rd, I'd only do so when I had excellent visibility ahead. I let the rev limited keep my speed in check most of the time, and it made it easier.

It's really dependent on the driver IMO. But I see absolutely nothing more dangerous about a vs. an auto.

I see nothing more dangerous about an auto.

Autotragics making a car more dangerous is like saying having abs makes a car more dangerous. Since computers determine the optimal braking distance where as foot modulation would make me go slower due to increased braking distances.

But the car doesn't read the road, it doesn't know when it shouldn't keep firing off upshifts and let speed climb with no check. That's what's dangerous to me, but I guess I'm just an idiot. When I've driven auto cars quickly, I find myself getting in over my head easier/faster than a Like I said, I like using shifting and the rev limiter as a speed governor. Autos CAN do that, but I find managing shifting more than 7 gears on my own to be way too confusing. There's 2-3 gears spanning the same ratio as one gear in a my simple mind can't handle all that.

It's 100% dependent on the driver.

[wap]

Regarding fun and improving skillz, one of my favorite things that I learned to do in my Scirocco was to shift without the clutch. Matching revs on either side of the clutch (engine/wheels) and just sliding the shifter to the next gear with no resistance was a :megusto: feeling. I took a long time to get to that level of familiarity with the car-sounds and feel-to get it right, but it was a party trick to show people.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Regarding fun and improving skillz, one of my favorite things that I learned to do in my Scirocco was to shift without the clutch. Matching revs on either side of the clutch (engine/wheels) and just sliding the shifter to the next gear with no resistance was a :megusto: feeling. I took a long time to get to that level of familiarity with the car-sounds and feel-to get it right, but it was a party trick to show people.

Driving without the clutch is expert level driving. And it varies from car to car, so it's an interesting skill you develop specifically when you know a certain car really well.

[D Griff]

Regarding fun and improving skillz, one of my favorite things that I learned to do in my Scirocco was to shift without the clutch. Matching revs on either side of the clutch (engine/wheels) and just sliding the shifter to the next gear with no resistance was a :megusto: feeling. I took a long time to get to that level of familiarity with the car-sounds and feel-to get it right, but it was a party trick to show people.

That is indeed another fun one, much like heel-toe. I am generally hesitant to do this too much though, as if you make a mistake, it can really grind your gears

[D Griff]

I see nothing more dangerous about an auto.

Autotragics making a car more dangerous is like saying having abs makes a car more dangerous. Since computers determine the optimal braking distance where as foot modulation would make me go slower due to increased braking distances.

But the car doesn't read the road, it doesn't know when it shouldn't keep firing off upshifts and let speed climb with no check. That's what's dangerous to me, but I guess I'm just an idiot. When I've driven auto cars quickly, I find myself getting in over my head easier/faster than a Like I said, I like using shifting and the rev limiter as a speed governor. Autos CAN do that, but I find managing shifting more than 7 gears on my own to be way too confusing. There's 2-3 gears spanning the same ratio as one gear in a my simple mind can't handle all that.

It's 100% dependent on the driver.

I do find this is helpful on track. Say you finally nail a corner you've been struggling with for a number of sessions, you can come out carrying WAY more speed. Generally once you're on the straight you take a momentary breather to check gauges and shit and during that you're just accelerating towards the next braking zone. Reach the top of a gear in and it's a great reality check of 'I'm going a lot faster and need to brake sooner'.

That said, I still think the safety argument is splitting hairs. I doubt there's any way to prove anything with data.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

But the car doesn't read the road, it doesn't know when it shouldn't keep firing off upshifts and let speed climb with no check. That's what's dangerous to me, but I guess I'm just an idiot. When I've driven auto cars quickly, I find myself getting in over my head easier/faster than a Like I said, I like using shifting and the rev limiter as a speed governor. Autos CAN do that, but I find managing shifting more than 7 gears on my own to be way too confusing. There's 2-3 gears spanning the same ratio as one gear in a my simple mind can't handle all that.

It's 100% dependent on the driver.

I do find this is helpful on track. Say you finally nail a corner you've been struggling with for a number of sessions, you can come out carrying WAY more speed. Generally once you're on the straight you take a momentary breather to check gauges and shit and during that you're just accelerating towards the next braking zone. Reach the top of a gear in and it's a great reality check of 'I'm going a lot faster and need to brake sooner'.

That said, I still think the safety argument is splitting hairs. I doubt there's any way to prove anything with data.

There's no way to prove it, which is why I say it's 100% dependent on the driver. It's just my personal perspective, which is obviously in true DFD fashion.

I guess nobody else has had that sinking feeling when you realize you're going too fast and you're in over your head and you have to do something in a split second to correct it. I've felt that way more in auto cars than manual cars, which is why I prefer manual cars driving at my limit (I thought that was the point of this thread).

But feelings =

[wap]

Regarding fun and improving skillz, one of my favorite things that I learned to do in my Scirocco was to shift without the clutch. Matching revs on either side of the clutch (engine/wheels) and just sliding the shifter to the next gear with no resistance was a :megusto: feeling. I took a long time to get to that level of familiarity with the car-sounds and feel-to get it right, but it was a party trick to show people.

Driving without the clutch is expert level driving. And it varies from car to car, so it's an interesting skill you develop specifically when you know a certain car really well.

It took me years in the Scirocco before I was able to do it. By then I was super tuned in to the cars' sounds and feels. Having a purely mechanical throttle and clutch (both cable operated with no electric enhancement) probably helped as well.

[wap]

Regarding fun and improving skillz, one of my favorite things that I learned to do in my Scirocco was to shift without the clutch. Matching revs on either side of the clutch (engine/wheels) and just sliding the shifter to the next gear with no resistance was a :megusto: feeling. I took a long time to get to that level of familiarity with the car-sounds and feel-to get it right, but it was a party trick to show people.

That is indeed another fun one, much like heel-toe. I am generally hesitant to do this too much though, as if you make a mistake, it can really grind your gears

I did grind a few times! LOL But didn't seem to cause any long term damage.

[max225]

So now we’re back to saying that manuals actually take way more mental capacity and skill as opposed to the “second nature” comments on it being “automatic” full circle

[D Griff]

So now we’re back to saying that manuals actually take way more mental capacity and skill as opposed to the “second nature” comments on it being “automatic” full circle

Well, honing in on heel-toe downshifts, rev matching, and clutchless shifts is very different than accelerating up a freeway ramp IMO.

I would liken this to playing an instrument. I barely play guitar now but after years of practice I could pick one up and play 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' or something rather well with basically zero effort or thought. If I tried to bust out a Dream Theater solo it would be a different story.

[D Griff]

what you expected though, this topic gets argued just like this on every car forum in history.

Dude A: "Modern automatics are faster, easier, and more efficient!"
Dude B: "But that feel bro, that feel"

Repeat for the rest of time.

[max225]

what you expected though, this topic gets argued just like this on every car forum in history.

Dude A: "Modern automatics are faster, easier, and more efficient!"
Dude B: "But that feel bro, that feel"

Repeat for the rest of time.

Yea … I wanted to bring some life in here.
So I’m getting exactly what I wanted. And it’s interesting to see peoples perspective on this

[Valkyrie]

So now we’re back to saying that manuals actually take way more mental capacity and skill as opposed to the “second nature” comments on it being “automatic” full circle

They've always required more thought and skill to operate well in a performance scenario, by a lot. That's why racecars generally don't have 3 pedals anymore. Watch some of the NASCAR guys (only pro series left AFAIK with 3 pedal cars) when they occasionally run on a road course where they have to use multiple gears and suddenly the difference between the fastest and slowest guys grows substantially and you see mistakes being made all over - and that's pro drivers at the top of the sport.

The skill being incredibly difficult to master is part of the charm.