MANUEL Discussion thread.

[max225]

Hey Y'all.

Since I am coming up at the 3 month mark for my purchase I clearly have plenty of thoughts in my head... That said it's not going anywhere but It just made me think about a couple of things.

What do y'all prefer about manuals vs automatics?

I was having this conundrum the other day because I thought that hey, if toyota actually made a decent automatic... it would completely negate the need for the manual... In the current state fuck the Toyota autos, so :manual: is here to stay... same as with say a C5 corvette... however a Nice dual clutch in the C8... would the Manual really add to the fun?!

Is it still "fun" to row your own gears?! I think it is to some extent, however I do feel like it can be quite distracting and tiring compared to an automatic doing it for you, unless of course its a pile of shit.

For my own use case I would love a V8+auto or a biggish 4 cyl turbo + auto in a truck... it just makes more sense that way. All low end and no high end.. because about ringing out the truk. I do it on the daily to keep up with traffic and it's entertaining, yet loud... which can be annoying.

It seems overall a should be reserved for a tactile "fun only" driving experience in a classic car. It seems to take away in most cases in modern vehicles. Which is why I think OEMs and people are shifting away (pun intended) from offering them to consumers.

Let me know your thoughts.

[Johnny_P]

There was a time not very long ago when manual transmissions had a lot of real tangible advantages. Cheaper to buy and maintain, better fuel economy, and better acceleration than an automatic that was down 2-3 gears off the MT.

Most of that isnt the case anymore. So the only advantage for most of them is they’re more involving or fun, and allow you total control. The total control bit is also somewhat negated by a modern automatic that has gear selection option.

I think they have a place. Certain cars are probably still more fun with an MT even if they’re slower or less fuel efficient.

[SAWCE]

Even in my little shot box commuter, I prefer rowing my own gears. I’ll add that in addition to being “more fun”, it just makes me more engaged as a driver. Will all the safety nannies and alerts and sensors I feel like so many people are even more checked out while driving than ever before because most cars will just about do everything for you… the manual means I have to be aware of speed/rpms and a little more alert so I can get on the clutch when I brake and not just lazily slide my right foot from gas to brake pedal.

I will for as long as I can, especially when buying new vehicles. Vote with my wallet and all that jazz.

[Johnny_P]

I will add that I have been immensely enjoying the automatic in the city. I should have made this change years ago. It’s so much better in crawling repetitive stop/go.

[wap]

I haven't actually owned a car in 25 years ( I know, ) but I do still find myself missing rowing my own gears almost every day. I drive my DSG in mode like 98% of the time just for the illusion of shifting for myself. For me, I guess it's just the tactility nature of it. The feeling that I'm almost sitting IN the machine surrounded by wheels, switches, levers, pedals, etc. Kinda like what it must have been like to drive a steam locomotive where the engineer was totally immersed in the guts of the thing.

Childish, boyish things I guess.

[Valkyrie]

I will add that I have been immensely enjoying the automatic in the city. I should have made this change years ago. It’s so much better in crawling repetitive stop/go.

I've no interest in now that I live in the city. Anywhere else, I'd still rather keep fighting the good fight.

I also DGAF about speed in particular beyond a quick 0-30 to hit gaps in traffic, which really would be best in an AWD EV.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I dunno, I think these days it's on a vehicle by vehicle basis.

I have driven very few modern manuals, so I have a small frame of reference. The last modern manual I drove was a Gladiator, and it was horrible. Gearing made no sense (it was basically a 4-speed with two stupid deep close overdrives you could never shift into), the clutch and shifter both felt like they weren't connected to anything, and overall I vastly preferred the 8-speed auto in the Gladiator I had at the time. Autos are way better for wheeling (I know many would be by this, STFU it's true), and with more gears, they tend to be quicker and easier to drive.

If I were buying a GRZ, it would be Same with a WRX, or any other compact fun car. I still argue that my ideal small vehicle is a 2.5 Crosstrek, but I know that'll never exist. I want a fun driving experience in something like that, and a should do it. Unless it's terrible like the Gladiator was, then I'd just buy the car that had a decent transmission. As Brandon said, vote with your wallet. This is key.

I really enjoy driving a manual trans and it would be my first choice if it was actually good.

Now, old shit is a different story, and I think part of what makes the S10 so fun is the clutch pedal and shifter. The transmission is geared remarkably well for spirited driving (makes no sense) and overall it just makes for a more fun nostalgic experience. Makes perfect sense on something like that where the auto sucked anyway, and the manual adds some fun to the old school feeling.

[Valkyrie]

Oddly, I do use the mode in our little Mazda frequently around town because that forces it to take off in 1st gear instead of 2nd, otherwise it will only take off in 1st and stay there if you hold your foot flat on the floor. It also allows you to downshift under braking so you can accelerate out of a turn vs having the thing try to take off in 4th gear at 10 mph then eventually downshift to get out of its own way seconds later.

It doesn't even have paddles, just the stick with sequential shifter like an older racing car. I think I prefer that to paddles anyway since the shifter is always in the same place.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Oddly, I do use the mode in our little Mazda frequently around town because that forces it to take off in 1st gear instead of 2nd, otherwise it will only take off in 1st and stay there if you hold your foot flat on the floor. It also allows you to downshift under braking so you can accelerate out of a turn vs having the thing try to take off in 4th gear at 10 mph then eventually downshift to get out of its own way seconds later.

It doesn't even have paddles, just the stick with sequential shifter like an older racing car. I think I prefer that to paddles anyway since the shifter is always in the same place.

I hate paddle shifters unless they're mounted to the steering column and don't move. Still, I prefer the shifter 100%.

[wap]

Oddly, I do use the mode in our little Mazda frequently around town because that forces it to take off in 1st gear instead of 2nd, otherwise it will only take off in 1st and stay there if you hold your foot flat on the floor. It also allows you to downshift under braking so you can accelerate out of a turn vs having the thing try to take off in 4th gear at 10 mph then eventually downshift to get out of its own way seconds later.

It doesn't even have paddles, just the stick with sequential shifter like an older racing car. I think I prefer that to paddles anyway since the shifter is always in the same place.

I hate paddle shifters unless they're mounted to the steering column and don't move. Still, I prefer the shifter 100%.

Same. I use the shifter 80-90% of the time.

[Valkyrie]

Oddly, I do use the mode in our little Mazda frequently around town because that forces it to take off in 1st gear instead of 2nd, otherwise it will only take off in 1st and stay there if you hold your foot flat on the floor. It also allows you to downshift under braking so you can accelerate out of a turn vs having the thing try to take off in 4th gear at 10 mph then eventually downshift to get out of its own way seconds later.

It doesn't even have paddles, just the stick with sequential shifter like an older racing car. I think I prefer that to paddles anyway since the shifter is always in the same place.

I hate paddle shifters unless they're mounted to the steering column and don't move. Still, I prefer the shifter 100%.

I prefer the shifter but only when it's oriented properly. Pull back for upshifts or

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I hate paddle shifters unless they're mounted to the steering column and don't move. Still, I prefer the shifter 100%.

I prefer the shifter but only when it's oriented properly. Pull back for upshifts or

The 4R is the opposite, and I mis-shift it CONSTANTLY as I use manual mode for towing. Such

[wap]

Oddly enough, the orientation of the DSG shifter never bothered me. Probably because that was the first (and still only) manumatic with a floor shifter that I've ever driven.

[max225]

Ok let's get some stuff out of the way. A DSG is not a manual ... any automatic with paddles is NOT a manual. Unless you have a 3rd pedal and have to deal with a clutch its nothing like driving a manual.

Thread was specifically around s that you have to shift... constantly have to match engine rpms etc pick the right gears etc. Pulling paddles is a different experience .

I suppose something like a GT3, where you have a choice of a or a DSG... how would you pick... initially I thought ..FUCK YEA look at the resale value. But now that I think about it and after having DD'ed a manual for the last 3 months... Would one really prefer the manual ? If so why? It would take away from the driving experience IMO. You'd have to deal with a lot more than just the immense speed of the car and it would create variables that could to cause an accident/mechanical failure in an incredibly expensive vehicle.

It's really specific to a particular vehicle IMO. I think I would have regretted a GTI in retrospect... Even though it was a great trans and it was great to drive on my test drive. Initially I thought was the correct choice but I am re-negging on that.

BRZ etc seems favor the because the 6 speed trans is boring/slow makes no sense... A proper DSG or auto in the BRZ/86 things may be a bit different.

[Valkyrie]

Oddly enough, the orientation of the DSG shifter never bothered me. Probably because that was the first (and still only) manumatic with a floor shifter that I've ever driven.

Ahh yeah I raced shifter karts for years before I ever drove a road car of any kind so the racecar way was already drilled into my head.

[wap]

Oddly enough, the orientation of the DSG shifter never bothered me. Probably because that was the first (and still only) manumatic with a floor shifter that I've ever driven.

Ahh yeah I raced shifter karts for years before I ever drove a road car of any kind so the racecar way was already drilled into my head.

There you go. Makes sense.

[wap]

Ok let's get some stuff out of the way. A DSG is not a manual ... any automatic with paddles is NOT a manual. Unless you have a 3rd pedal and have to deal with a clutch its nothing like driving a manual.

Thread was specifically around s that you have to shift... constantly have to match engine rpms etc pick the right gears etc. Pulling paddles is a different experience .

I suppose something like a GT3, where you have a choice of a or a DSG... how would you pick... initially I thought ..FUCK YEA look at the resale value. But now that I think about it and after having DD'ed a manual for the last 3 months... Would one really prefer the manual ? If so why? It would take away from the driving experience IMO. You'd have to deal with a lot more than just the immense speed of the car and it would create variables that could to cause an accident/mechanical failure in an incredibly expensive vehicle.

It's really specific to a particular vehicle IMO. I think I would have regretted a GTI in retrospect... Even though it was a great trans and it was great to drive on my test drive. Initially I thought was the correct choice but I am re-negging on that.

BRZ etc seems favor the because the 6 speed trans is boring/slow makes no sense... A proper DSG or auto in the BRZ/86 things may be a bit different.

Who said a DSG is a ?

[max225]

I dunno, I think these days it's on a vehicle by vehicle basis.

I have driven very few modern manuals, so I have a small frame of reference. The last modern manual I drove was a Gladiator, and it was horrible. Gearing made no sense (it was basically a 4-speed with two stupid deep close overdrives you could never shift into), the clutch and shifter both felt like they weren't connected to anything, and overall I vastly preferred the 8-speed auto in the Gladiator I had at the time. Autos are way better for wheeling (I know many would be by this, STFU it's true), and with more gears, they tend to be quicker and easier to drive.

If I were buying a GRZ, it would be Same with a WRX, or any other compact fun car. I still argue that my ideal small vehicle is a 2.5 Crosstrek, but I know that'll never exist. I want a fun driving experience in something like that, and a should do it. Unless it's terrible like the Gladiator was, then I'd just buy the car that had a decent transmission. As Brandon said, vote with your wallet. This is key.

I really enjoy driving a manual trans and it would be my first choice if it was actually good.

Now, old shit is a different story, and I think part of what makes the S10 so fun is the clutch pedal and shifter. The transmission is geared remarkably well for spirited driving (makes no sense) and overall it just makes for a more fun nostalgic experience. Makes perfect sense on something like that where the auto sucked anyway, and the manual adds some fun to the old school feeling.

The manual in the FCA Jeep products is hot garbage. I hated it with a passion, but the 8 speed is great. It's kind of flipped with the toyota.. but even then I think that I would prefer a turbo 4+crisp auto over N/A V6 +

I am really intrigued by the new 2.7T GM has made... I am just weary that GM hasn't made a single decent non LS motor in the last 20 years. All have some sort catastrophic failures built in.

[max225]

Ok let's get some stuff out of the way. A DSG is not a manual ... any automatic with paddles is NOT a manual. Unless you have a 3rd pedal and have to deal with a clutch its nothing like driving a manual.

Thread was specifically around s that you have to shift... constantly have to match engine rpms etc pick the right gears etc. Pulling paddles is a different experience .

I suppose something like a GT3, where you have a choice of a or a DSG... how would you pick... initially I thought ..FUCK YEA look at the resale value. But now that I think about it and after having DD'ed a manual for the last 3 months... Would one really prefer the manual ? If so why? It would take away from the driving experience IMO. You'd have to deal with a lot more than just the immense speed of the car and it would create variables that could to cause an accident/mechanical failure in an incredibly expensive vehicle.

It's really specific to a particular vehicle IMO. I think I would have regretted a GTI in retrospect... Even though it was a great trans and it was great to drive on my test drive. Initially I thought was the correct choice but I am re-negging on that.

BRZ etc seems favor the because the 6 speed trans is boring/slow makes no sense... A proper DSG or auto in the BRZ/86 things may be a bit different.

Who said a DSG is a ?

There are a lot of comparisons in your initial post about how it is reminiscent of a it's flat out

[SAWCE]

The in the GTI from the factory was hot garbage. But goddamn did the dieselgeek shifter fix all of those problems. Shorter throws plus that mechanical clicking into place for each gear.

[max225]

Even in my little shot box commuter, I prefer rowing my own gears. I’ll add that in addition to being “more fun”, it just makes me more engaged as a driver. Will all the safety nannies and alerts and sensors I feel like so many people are even more checked out while driving than ever before because most cars will just about do everything for you… the manual means I have to be aware of speed/rpms and a little more alert so I can get on the clutch when I brake and not just lazily slide my right foot from gas to brake pedal.

I will for as long as I can, especially when buying new vehicles. Vote with my wallet and all that jazz.

While I agree as far as being more engaged. It also feels a lot more dangerous... because you have to deal with a ton more shit while say merging on the freeway. You monitor other drives + on top of that you have execute multiple shifts, ensure engine/trans are all in sync etc.

At least for me it takes up 30% of my attention... which is almost as bad as texting and driving. Which can be quite dangerous... Also in emergency conditions you have at least 1 more pedal to press and an action to make (shifting into neutral)

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I dunno, I think these days it's on a vehicle by vehicle basis.

I have driven very few modern manuals, so I have a small frame of reference. The last modern manual I drove was a Gladiator, and it was horrible. Gearing made no sense (it was basically a 4-speed with two stupid deep close overdrives you could never shift into), the clutch and shifter both felt like they weren't connected to anything, and overall I vastly preferred the 8-speed auto in the Gladiator I had at the time. Autos are way better for wheeling (I know many would be by this, STFU it's true), and with more gears, they tend to be quicker and easier to drive.

If I were buying a GRZ, it would be Same with a WRX, or any other compact fun car. I still argue that my ideal small vehicle is a 2.5 Crosstrek, but I know that'll never exist. I want a fun driving experience in something like that, and a should do it. Unless it's terrible like the Gladiator was, then I'd just buy the car that had a decent transmission. As Brandon said, vote with your wallet. This is key.

I really enjoy driving a manual trans and it would be my first choice if it was actually good.

Now, old shit is a different story, and I think part of what makes the S10 so fun is the clutch pedal and shifter. The transmission is geared remarkably well for spirited driving (makes no sense) and overall it just makes for a more fun nostalgic experience. Makes perfect sense on something like that where the auto sucked anyway, and the manual adds some fun to the old school feeling.

The manual in the FCA Jeep products is hot garbage. I hated it with a passion, but the 8 speed is great. It's kind of flipped with the toyota.. but even then I think that I would prefer a turbo 4+crisp auto over N/A V6 +

I am really intrigued by the new 2.7T GM has made... I am just weary that GM hasn't made a single decent non LS motor in the last 20 years. All have some sort catastrophic failures built in.

While I'm sure the 2.7T is a great engine, designed from the ground up to live in a truck, you're right that GM seems to have issues as of late with ICE development. I'm not sure if it's a complexity thing or what, but there just seems to be a bunch of random issues popping up. The 2.7 is awesome, but major on long-term durability. It should have not problem making it to 100k miles, which is about all that matters for people like us.

Why GM, Toyota, and Stellanus chose to put car engines in trucks will always be me. Toyota has no good transmissions, GM's actually worse with transmissions than engines, but I'll say the 3.6 + 8 Speed + 4.10's in my Gladiator was fantastic. That's an example of the entire package being greater than the sum of its parts.

trucks are toast, I'll be shocked if Toyota even bothers offering one in the next gen Taco.

Manuals will just be a fun enthusiast car thing, which is probably how they fit in the industry now.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Even in my little shot box commuter, I prefer rowing my own gears. I’ll add that in addition to being “more fun”, it just makes me more engaged as a driver. Will all the safety nannies and alerts and sensors I feel like so many people are even more checked out while driving than ever before because most cars will just about do everything for you… the manual means I have to be aware of speed/rpms and a little more alert so I can get on the clutch when I brake and not just lazily slide my right foot from gas to brake pedal.

I will for as long as I can, especially when buying new vehicles. Vote with my wallet and all that jazz.

While I agree as far as being more engaged. It also feels a lot more dangerous... because you have to deal with a ton more shit while say merging on the freeway. You monitor other drives + on top of that you have execute multiple shifts, ensure engine/trans are all in sync etc.

At least for me it takes up 30% of my attention... which is almost as bad as texting and driving. Which can be quite dangerous... Also in emergency conditions you have at least 1 more pedal to press and an action to make (shifting into neutral)

Wow really? It's completely second nature to me...maybe 5% of my attention at most.

Depends on the person

[max225]

Rumors on the tacoma forum have the 4th gen truck not getting a i think it'll keep the last gen truck with the stick elevated but overall... the new 2.4slow +turbo + 8AT will likely perform way better across the "driving RPM range" of 2000-3500rpm... my Taco really wakes up at 3500 when it comes on VTEC/CAM. That said it's just quite loud and the woman always when that happens.

[max225]

While I agree as far as being more engaged. It also feels a lot more dangerous... because you have to deal with a ton more shit while say merging on the freeway. You monitor other drives + on top of that you have execute multiple shifts, ensure engine/trans are all in sync etc.

At least for me it takes up 30% of my attention... which is almost as bad as texting and driving. Which can be quite dangerous... Also in emergency conditions you have at least 1 more pedal to press and an action to make (shifting into neutral)

Wow really? It's completely second nature to me...maybe 5% of my attention at most.

Depends on the person

It really depends... I mean the only inputs you have in an auto car is the throttle + wheel. In a manuel you are also adding a clutch a lever and you have to get off and on the gas during a merge at least 2x. It is a far more involved process. Feet are doing a dance and the hand is moving off the wheel... I'd say it's about 3x the mental capacity... compared to just point and shoot at the sky.