OT 21: DFD Giveth and DFD Taketh Away

[golftdibrad1]

Anyone have any dece weekend plans?

getting dog, work on apartment. Drive to mountains with kid. get ice cream

[SAWCE]

Anyone have any dece weekend plans?

getting dog, work on apartment. Drive to mountains with kid. get ice cream

What kind of dog?

[MrH42]

I disagree with tons of what you wrote. But it really boils down to this:

Anyone can be a girl in the same sense that anyone can be a nerd?

Ok. What are they being? What are they identifying as? Describe what a woman is. How do you identify and transition to be a woman, if anyone can be a woman?

[golftdibrad1]

getting dog, work on apartment. Drive to mountains with kid. get ice cream

What kind of dog?

Doberman. will make thread Monday. I'll try to think of an offensive title

[golftdibrad1]

I disagree with tons of what you wrote. But it really boils down to this:

Anyone can be a girl in the same sense that anyone can be a nerd?

Ok. What are they being? What are they identifying as? Describe what a woman is. How do you identify and transition to be a woman, if anyone can be a woman?

I only scanned but it's just what I see as the same recycling of bad research, propaganda, and bs.

Gender is fundamentally tied to biological sex for everyone, and the vast majority of peoples gender identity aligns to their biological sex.

[coogles]

I disagree with tons of what you wrote. But it really boils down to this:

Anyone can be a girl in the same sense that anyone can be a nerd?

Ok. What are they being? What are they identifying as? Describe what a woman is. How do you identify and transition to be a woman, if anyone can be a woman?

I only scanned but it's just what I see as the same recycling of bad research, propaganda, and bs.

Gender is fundamentally tied to biological sex for everyone, and the vast majority of peoples gender identity aligns to their biological sex.

The citations on that page even say as much. (The below is from #4) Gender exists across a broad spectrum and there is some overlap in terms of the presentation of masculine and feminine characteristics, but there is a clear and obvious correlation between biological sex and gender.

[Valkyrie]

I disagree with tons of what you wrote. But it really boils down to this:

Anyone can be a girl in the same sense that anyone can be a nerd?

Ok. What are they being? What are they identifying as? Describe what a woman is. How do you identify and transition to be a woman, if anyone can be a woman?

You disagree? That's lovely, I put what in hindsight was an unreasonable amount of time into writing that. Seems the good faith was lost as soon as we started making any progress. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to prove us all wrong on everything if it's all so simple?

There are literally entire books written on what you seem to think is such a simple question. I'd suggest Simone de Beauvoir's work as a start in answering your 'gotcha' question while also providing insight into the sex vs gender distinction. It's long and in French and Beauvoir was problematic in so many ways herself, but it's a good read and informed a lot of modern gender works.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/457 ... Second_Sex

Key sentence: "On ne naît pas femme: on le devient"

Roughly translated: “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”

For a shorter and slightly more modern academic brief on various distinctions between sex and gender, perhaps start here:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/189945

Also written before I was born so out of date, but it's a decent starting point and quite a bit shorter.

[Valkyrie]

Anyway, now that the quiet part has been said out loud by most (all?) of the folks here I'll proceed accordingly. I should have known better than to ever say anything to anyone.

[SAWCE]

Anyway, now that the quiet part has been said out loud by most (all?) of the folks here I'll proceed accordingly. I should have known better than to ever say anything to anyone.

I think the majority of us agree with you Brad, Mr. H, and Coogs have a different opinion, but it seems like the rest of us share your thoughts/feels on the topic. I haven’t been on much the last two days so may have missed posts by others though.

[golftdibrad1]

Anyway, now that the quiet part has been said out loud by most (all?) of the folks here I'll proceed accordingly. I should have known better than to ever say anything to anyone.

I think the majority of us agree with you Brad, Mr. H, and Coogs have a different opinion, but it seems like the rest of us share your thoughts/feels on the topic. I haven’t been on much the last two days so may have missed posts by others though.

all I'm saying is don't expose children to this crap. Adults in my world have freedom to do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with my freedom.

it's a shame that's somehow become radical right wing.

[golftdibrad1]

I only scanned but it's just what I see as the same recycling of bad research, propaganda, and bs.

Gender is fundamentally tied to biological sex for everyone, and the vast majority of peoples gender identity aligns to their biological sex.

The citations on that page even say as much. (The below is from #4) Gender exists across a broad spectrum and there is some overlap in terms of the presentation of masculine and feminine characteristics, but there is a clear and obvious correlation between biological sex and gender.

yup. and I bet that graph is either a hypothetical type display and / or it's scale is criminally manipulated. I don't deny there is overlap and spectrum, but gender norms are, well, normal and kids need things kept simple till they are ready for these ideas.

[wap]

Anyway, now that the quiet part has been said out loud by most (all?) of the folks here I'll proceed accordingly. I should have known better than to ever say anything to anyone.

I think the majority of us agree with you Brad, Mr. H, and Coogs have a different opinion, but it seems like the rest of us share your thoughts/feels on the topic. I haven’t been on much the last two days so may have missed posts by others though.

[coogles]

Anyway, now that the quiet part has been said out loud by most (all?) of the folks here I'll proceed accordingly. I should have known better than to ever say anything to anyone.

I think the majority of us agree with you Brad, Mr. H, and Coogs have a different opinion, but it seems like the rest of us share your thoughts/feels on the topic. I haven’t been on much the last two days so may have missed posts by others though.

Just because I have the opinion that there is a correlation between biological sex and the gender norms we observe in society doesn't mean I don't support one's choice to be who they feel they are.

[Valkyrie]

I think the majority of us agree with you Brad, Mr. H, and Coogs have a different opinion, but it seems like the rest of us share your thoughts/feels on the topic. I haven’t been on much the last two days so may have missed posts by others though.

all I'm saying is don't expose children to this crap. Adults in my world have freedom to do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with my freedom.

it's a shame that's somehow become radical right wing.

I'm surprised that I lived long enough to figure any of this out, having grown up in what you would apparently call a paradise - completely sheltered from any kind of ideas that anyone could be "different" in any way. I hid myself away and wanted to die for years and will suffer the consequences of growing up that way until I come to an unnecessarily early death from the years of chronic stress. I'll never fully recover, permanent damage was done.

You want to talk about what harms kids? Teaching them that they need to be like everyone else is a good way to do it.

[D Griff]

I want to hear your explanation of it. I don't feel like my questions are that unusual. I see a lot of logical incongruities in the basics of it that I can't seem to figure out. If you'd prefer to point to someone who has written about it that you feel explains it better than you can, by all means, point me in that direction. I have not found anything that answers the questions I asked.

Why are your questions a prerequisite to discussing non-intersex related transgenderism? Intersex has nothing to do with the vast majority of transgender individuals (yourself included I might be incorrectly assuming?). If you want me to agree that intersex individuals don't fit the sex binary, that's fine. Let's exclude them from the discussion all together. Do you agree non-intersex individuals fall within a biological sex binary?

There are a lot of things going on at once, some of which are related to each other, so it's all complicated.

First off, none of this has anything to do with sexuality/orientation/bedroomstuff and I don't know why folks keep bringing it up. Perhaps because the word 'sex' has multiple meanings? Whatever the reason, that is another subject entirely.

I'm frankly amazed that you guys seem to think that you have everything all perfectly understood and know what's best for everyone. I am far from certain on any of this. You either know a lot more than I do or are unwilling to consider that your understanding is incomplete. To paraphrase your old pal Socrates, I know enough to know that I don't know much.

I bring up intersex because it's an umbrella term and there exist individuals that I believe we would all agree are intersex - not fitting entirely into either male or female. Excluding them from the discussion is the exact opposite of where I'd like to go. There are in fact humans who are not entirely male or female, this is important to acknowledge. Non-binary folks exist.

Now some fun stuff, sex vs gender:

Speaking largely for myself, but as I've noted before the idea of making a distinction between the two is not some radical idea. Read the first paragraph and follow citations 6 through 14 for some more detailed examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex%E2%80 ... istinction

(It's not important to go through them in detail but to acknowledge that the work exists. Your view is not common in the scientific community and, to my knowledge, you have presented no evidence in support of it.)

I think that the distinction between sex and gender largely comes down to biology (sex, male/female) vs behavior (gender, man/woman, boy/girl). I believe that this distinction is a necessary bridge to accommodate our limited understanding of biology and our still primitive society.

For most people most of the time, only gender is relevant to life. Sex matters for some doctors some of the time and their patients at those times. Otherwise gender is how we think of and interact with ourselves and others.

On the "primitive society" part: While there is movement toward loosening the role of gender in society (women can vote in this country, that's nice - still only men can get drafted into the military though?), the fact is that we still have a ton of built up norms/stereotypes associated with gender. People absolutely think of girl and boy stuff starting from a very young age and it doesn't really go away, not entirely. We still have M/F on most of our documents and split people up according to gender in all sorts of everyday situations.

At some point we will hopefully free ourselves enough from those ideas that the general collection of behaviors that we now think of as gender will be accepted in any combination in individuals from any sex - i.e. anyone can be a girl in the same way that anyone can be a nerd. Gender will be a convenient shorthand for a spectrum of general behaviors that some people will identify with more strongly than others which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sex.

Gender is important to me personally because it is important to almost everyone else I ever interact with in this world. It's a tool that works for now. It's often necessary (and always convenient) in society to fit into either the man or woman category and I happen to fit quite neatly into the woman category. It's a multi-dimensional spectrum, but I am in the far corner of it.


Going back to "our limited understanding of biology" - this is when we finally get into the concept of trans people:

Remember when we agreed that biological sex is not entirely binary? That was an important point.

Even among "normal" (XX or XY) individuals, there are countless sex characteristics determined by not only genetic but also hormonal and environmental factors. Expression of each has its own spectrum and there absolutely are XY individuals who are closer to the average XX than the average XY and vice versa. There are also our friends with known intersex conditions who fall somewhere in that mix.

I suspect that we will eventually determine that what we call "gender identity" is also determined biologically, even though it is not yet understood. There is evidence to support that notion:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub

I expect there to one day be what we would call a "trans test" now, though I hope that it is not labeled as such by then. I expect that "biological sex" will eventually expand beyond the 2 box paradigm to include those sorts of factors. How we might label and categorize any of the resulting groups, I don't know.

What I do know is that we need language and policies that work today. Is any of it perfect? No. Neither is forcing people who are different to suffer in silence or, worse yet, punish them for existing.

What I also know is that it costs nothing to address people as they ask you to address them and to treat them based on their behavior rather than what's in their genes/jeans.

What I also know is that health outcomes are generally better for individuals who ARE taught about these things and receive gender-affirming care (No, we're not talking about surgery. Stop jumping to that conclusion). Trans kids with support become trans adults, trans kids without support become memories. It's not much different for adults. Knowledge is power and inclusion is important.

All I would like to say to this is I’m very proud of and happy for you. This debate would’ve turned into a massive shots fired attack and rage quit by the artist formerly known as Troy whereas Valerie came in with cited argument points and well thought out responses.

I’m genuinely happy for you and to me your own experiences you’ve shared with us prove your point quite well.

[wap]

There are a lot of things going on at once, some of which are related to each other, so it's all complicated.

First off, none of this has anything to do with sexuality/orientation/bedroomstuff and I don't know why folks keep bringing it up. Perhaps because the word 'sex' has multiple meanings? Whatever the reason, that is another subject entirely.

I'm frankly amazed that you guys seem to think that you have everything all perfectly understood and know what's best for everyone. I am far from certain on any of this. You either know a lot more than I do or are unwilling to consider that your understanding is incomplete. To paraphrase your old pal Socrates, I know enough to know that I don't know much.

I bring up intersex because it's an umbrella term and there exist individuals that I believe we would all agree are intersex - not fitting entirely into either male or female. Excluding them from the discussion is the exact opposite of where I'd like to go. There are in fact humans who are not entirely male or female, this is important to acknowledge. Non-binary folks exist.

Now some fun stuff, sex vs gender:

Speaking largely for myself, but as I've noted before the idea of making a distinction between the two is not some radical idea. Read the first paragraph and follow citations 6 through 14 for some more detailed examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex%E2%80 ... istinction

(It's not important to go through them in detail but to acknowledge that the work exists. Your view is not common in the scientific community and, to my knowledge, you have presented no evidence in support of it.)

I think that the distinction between sex and gender largely comes down to biology (sex, male/female) vs behavior (gender, man/woman, boy/girl). I believe that this distinction is a necessary bridge to accommodate our limited understanding of biology and our still primitive society.

For most people most of the time, only gender is relevant to life. Sex matters for some doctors some of the time and their patients at those times. Otherwise gender is how we think of and interact with ourselves and others.

On the "primitive society" part: While there is movement toward loosening the role of gender in society (women can vote in this country, that's nice - still only men can get drafted into the military though?), the fact is that we still have a ton of built up norms/stereotypes associated with gender. People absolutely think of girl and boy stuff starting from a very young age and it doesn't really go away, not entirely. We still have M/F on most of our documents and split people up according to gender in all sorts of everyday situations.

At some point we will hopefully free ourselves enough from those ideas that the general collection of behaviors that we now think of as gender will be accepted in any combination in individuals from any sex - i.e. anyone can be a girl in the same way that anyone can be a nerd. Gender will be a convenient shorthand for a spectrum of general behaviors that some people will identify with more strongly than others which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sex.

Gender is important to me personally because it is important to almost everyone else I ever interact with in this world. It's a tool that works for now. It's often necessary (and always convenient) in society to fit into either the man or woman category and I happen to fit quite neatly into the woman category. It's a multi-dimensional spectrum, but I am in the far corner of it.


Going back to "our limited understanding of biology" - this is when we finally get into the concept of trans people:

Remember when we agreed that biological sex is not entirely binary? That was an important point.

Even among "normal" (XX or XY) individuals, there are countless sex characteristics determined by not only genetic but also hormonal and environmental factors. Expression of each has its own spectrum and there absolutely are XY individuals who are closer to the average XX than the average XY and vice versa. There are also our friends with known intersex conditions who fall somewhere in that mix.

I suspect that we will eventually determine that what we call "gender identity" is also determined biologically, even though it is not yet understood. There is evidence to support that notion:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub

I expect there to one day be what we would call a "trans test" now, though I hope that it is not labeled as such by then. I expect that "biological sex" will eventually expand beyond the 2 box paradigm to include those sorts of factors. How we might label and categorize any of the resulting groups, I don't know.

What I do know is that we need language and policies that work today. Is any of it perfect? No. Neither is forcing people who are different to suffer in silence or, worse yet, punish them for existing.

What I also know is that it costs nothing to address people as they ask you to address them and to treat them based on their behavior rather than what's in their genes/jeans.

What I also know is that health outcomes are generally better for individuals who ARE taught about these things and receive gender-affirming care (No, we're not talking about surgery. Stop jumping to that conclusion). Trans kids with support become trans adults, trans kids without support become memories. It's not much different for adults. Knowledge is power and inclusion is important.

All I would like to say to this is I’m very proud of and happy for you. This debate would’ve turned into a massive shots fired attack and rage quit by the artist formerly known as Troy whereas Valerie came in with cited argument points and well thought out responses.

I’m genuinely happy for you and to me your own experiences you’ve shared with us prove your point quite well.

I thought the same thing.
Val, most of us feel the same way as , FWIW.

[coogles]

All I would like to say to this is I’m very proud of and happy for you. This debate would’ve turned into a massive shots fired attack and rage quit by the artist formerly known as Troy whereas Valerie came in with cited argument points and well thought out responses.

I’m genuinely happy for you and to me your own experiences you’ve shared with us prove your point quite well.

That I will echo. Val, I'm glad you're finding a way to be comfortable in your own skin, and that you've found a way to share that both with the people in your personal life as well as the people on here. I may disagree with you on some things at the margins (who cares?), but in terms of how we should all be treating each other, I wholeheartedly agree.

[golftdibrad1]

all I'm saying is don't expose children to this crap. Adults in my world have freedom to do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with my freedom.

it's a shame that's somehow become radical right wing.

I'm surprised that I lived long enough to figure any of this out, having grown up in what you would apparently call a paradise - completely sheltered from any kind of ideas that anyone could be "different" in any way. I hid myself away and wanted to die for years and will suffer the consequences of growing up that way until I come to an unnecessarily early death from the years of chronic stress. I'll never fully recover, permanent damage was done.

You want to talk about what harms kids? Teaching them that they need to be like everyone else is a good way to do it.

I disagree about the children. It's too great a risk that more normal kids will come to harm through teaching of these concepts vs those helped by the same. The good of the many and all.

I whole hearteldly think that we should teach kindness and acceptance, and NOT hate like some religious groups still do. But exposure to gender ideas and by extension sexual ones before they are ready is just not ok.

And I get it was hard for you. News flash: you aren't the only one that had a difficult childhood. I hated highschool. Constantly had social issues, ie made fun of to the point of misery myself. Because I have gynecomastia fairly prominently. You think having a bunch of highschool kids being introduced to alt sexuality would have made my existence with bitch tits better or worse val? cause I don't think it would have fucking helped at all.

[MrH42]

I disagree with tons of what you wrote. But it really boils down to this:

Anyone can be a girl in the same sense that anyone can be a nerd?

Ok. What are they being? What are they identifying as? Describe what a woman is. How do you identify and transition to be a woman, if anyone can be a woman?

You disagree? That's lovely, I put what in hindsight was an unreasonable amount of time into writing that. Seems the good faith was lost as soon as we started making any progress. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to prove us all wrong on everything if it's all so simple?

There are literally entire books written on what you seem to think is such a simple question. I'd suggest Simone de Beauvoir's work as a start in answering your 'gotcha' question while also providing insight into the sex vs gender distinction. It's long and in French and Beauvoir was problematic in so many ways herself, but it's a good read and informed a lot of modern gender works.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/457 ... Second_Sex

Key sentence: "On ne naît pas femme: on le devient"

Roughly translated: “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”

For a shorter and slightly more modern academic brief on various distinctions between sex and gender, perhaps start here:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/189945

Also written before I was born so out of date, but it's a decent starting point and quite a bit shorter.

How was good faith lost? I don't want to sit and argue about minor points. I'm just trying to get at the crux of your position, which I think I understand now.

It sounds like the disagreement largely boils down to:

- You believe sex and gender are separate things. I don't necessarily agree (I believe they are strongly correlated, not totally detached from one another), but I can at least make sense of that position.

- It doesn't sound like you believe biological sex is binary. Again, I don't agree, but I can at least sort of understand your position here?

- And it sounds like you're using the term "woman" more in the gendered sense, not the biological sex sense? This is where I'm totally lost. You used male/female as a different set of adjectives from man/woman and boy/girl at one point. Is this what it ultimately boils down to? You're using man/woman to describe gender, not necessarily biological sex? In your opinion, can there be such a thing as a male who is a woman? Or a female that is a man?

I would agree there can be incredibly feminine men and masculine women.

[golftdibrad1]

FWIW lots of LGBT people are NOT insane like ye olde Val here, and realize this shit is fundamentally WRONG.





https://www.gaysagainstgroomers.com/about

They even have people with colored hair on the leadershit team.

[golftdibrad1]

It took 2 seconds to find this. Isolated instance or an infiltration movement? You decide. No sane person thinks this is ok.

[golftdibrad1]

[Valkyrie]

Wacky Woke Judge Jumps Shark, Supports Villainous Val's Claims Concerning Trans Teens

https://www.lawdork.com/p/florida-rulin ... ban-minors

The arguments and citations will sound familiar if anyone bothers to read them.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 3.90.0.pdf



Now back to your regularly scheduled spreading of conspiracy theories and hate-fueled extremist propaganda (GAG and Libs of TikTok? Seriously? You might as well quote the Grand Wizard himself)... I'm out. That shit's unacceptable.

[golftdibrad1]

Now back to your regularly scheduled spreading of conspiracy theories and hate-fueled extremist propaganda (GAG and Libs of TikTok? Seriously? You might as well quote the Grand Wizard himself)... I'm out. That shit's unacceptable.

You need help. None of this discussion has been or is fuel by hate. The position you are taking is insane and will lead to great amounts of human suffering if it becomes the norm in our country.

The extreme left in this country has truly done a 180 and become full blown fascists. Amazing really.

[golftdibrad1]

explain to me how this is appropriate for this age of children.

it's not and if you think so you are a groomer garbage