Somewhat his fault for sure. But ironically their delivery timelines seem superior to the rest. There should be no reason on the planet why a Model X will deliver quicker than a Bronco.Detroit wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 2:34 pmThank your lord and savior Elon for that.max225 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 2:33 pm
My biggest issue with the industry now is that the entire car "release/reveal" pricess has shifted YEARS into the future. It's like we see a prototype and a pre order process at least 2+ years before being able to physically get the vehicle... I don't think OEMs ever released/revealed products this early before mass production.
I.E When can one buy a new F150 lightning... the most popular vehicle in the US of A. Probably 2+ years out... at the least from the reveal.
Reveal was exactly 1 year ago... haven't seen any anywhere... and you can't buy a 22 model year...
:wtf: WAP made a car thread? AKA the most boring car thread ever
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Sure, but don't you need an example of every model on the floor so you can go in to make that determination?Detroit wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 2:11 pmPretty much every OEM has claimed they won't return to "normal" inventory with full lots again. I :yeahsure: that, but it'll be interesting to see if that's the case.wap wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:36 pm
It is different than "normal" pre-VID , at this diller anyway. They ALWAYS had a hand full of GTI's, a GLI or 2, often an R, several Tig's and Atlas's, etc. And once upon a time a bunch of Golfs, GSW's, TDI's, etc. They even had a couple of ID4's last year.
Hopefully I'll see lots start to fill up here soon.
I kind of like going into the dealer, identifying the exact vehicle I want, then waiting for it to come in. It's how Europeans have always bought cars, and makes sense. Buying the 4R was the best buying experience I've had yet, and I got the exact truck I wanted.
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Yea... It's a tough call. But one example of each vehicle type seems like the most "normal" approach. But specific options etc are very difficult to visualize and figure out. But hell I bought cars sight unseen in Florida and was perfectly happy.wap wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:47 pmSure, but don't you need an example of every model on the floor so you can go in to make that determination?Detroit wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 2:11 pm
Pretty much every OEM has claimed they won't return to "normal" inventory with full lots again. I :yeahsure: that, but it'll be interesting to see if that's the case.
I kind of like going into the dealer, identifying the exact vehicle I want, then waiting for it to come in. It's how Europeans have always bought cars, and makes sense. Buying the 4R was the best buying experience I've had yet, and I got the exact truck I wanted.
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Exactlywap wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:47 pmSure, but don't you need an example of every model on the floor so you can go in to make that determination?Detroit wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 2:11 pm
Pretty much every OEM has claimed they won't return to "normal" inventory with full lots again. I :yeahsure: that, but it'll be interesting to see if that's the case.
I kind of like going into the dealer, identifying the exact vehicle I want, then waiting for it to come in. It's how Europeans have always bought cars, and makes sense. Buying the 4R was the best buying experience I've had yet, and I got the exact truck I wanted.
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We drove a TRD Sport (the road version) 4Runner when we went to check them out. Similar interior to ours, somewhat similar features, but overall did a great job at showing the size, comfort, drive, tech, etc. I wanted a green off-road, and the dealer found one in coming. I mentioned that I was a bit concerned that the Off-road might not be what we wanted exactly, sales bro "we'll sell it no matter what". No deposit, he called when it came in, we drove it and could have walked away scot free if we didn't like it.wap wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:47 pmSure, but don't you need an example of every model on the floor so you can go in to make that determination?Detroit wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 2:11 pm
Pretty much every OEM has claimed they won't return to "normal" inventory with full lots again. I :yeahsure: that, but it'll be interesting to see if that's the case.
I kind of like going into the dealer, identifying the exact vehicle I want, then waiting for it to come in. It's how Europeans have always bought cars, and makes sense. Buying the 4R was the best buying experience I've had yet, and I got the exact truck I wanted.
My dealer could be a model for how dealers should handle this situation going forward. No deposits, no markups, no bs, no pressure.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Side note... I never really understood the sport trim. It is identical to the OR, minus the locker and it usually comes with slightly larger wheels but minivan tires. So they probably drive incredibly similar.Detroit wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 4:29 pmWe drove a TRD Sport (the road version) 4Runner when we went to check them out. Similar interior to ours, somewhat similar features, but overall did a great job at showing the size, comfort, drive, tech, etc. I wanted a green off-road, and the dealer found one in coming. I mentioned that I was a bit concerned that the Off-road might not be what we wanted exactly, sales bro "we'll sell it no matter what". No deposit, he called when it came in, we drove it and could have walked away scot free if we didn't like it.
My dealer could be a model for how dealers should handle this situation going forward. No deposits, no markups, no bs, no pressure.
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Not from my experience. The Sport has the Limited rear suspension layout, which is far more street friendly and better for handling. It was surprisingly decent to drive on the road, better than I expected by quite a bit. My ORP is far more rolly and "soft" feeling handling by comparison. Before the Sport, the only way to get the on-road suspension was the Limited So it makes sense in the lineup IMO. I also suspect that most sales are SR5, OR, and TuRD Bro. Limited having it's own unique suspension for a limited volume doesn't make financial sense, so they were probably trying to boost volume. PLUS, the Sport uses the Limited front fascia which probably has some CAFE/GHG scoring benefits to use on more volume.max225 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 12:17 pmSide note... I never really understood the sport trim. It is identical to the OR, minus the locker and it usually comes with slightly larger wheels but minivan tires. So they probably drive incredibly similar.Detroit wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 4:29 pm
We drove a TRD Sport (the road version) 4Runner when we went to check them out. Similar interior to ours, somewhat similar features, but overall did a great job at showing the size, comfort, drive, tech, etc. I wanted a green off-road, and the dealer found one in coming. I mentioned that I was a bit concerned that the Off-road might not be what we wanted exactly, sales bro "we'll sell it no matter what". No deposit, he called when it came in, we drove it and could have walked away scot free if we didn't like it.
My dealer could be a model for how dealers should handle this situation going forward. No deposits, no markups, no bs, no pressure.
That said, I don't understand why anyone would buy an on-road 4R. There's SO MANY other choices that are better for that use case, it just makes no sense.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Especially in 2WD trim... which was around for a bitDetroit wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:08 pmNot from my experience. The Sport has the Limited rear suspension layout, which is far more street friendly and better for handling. It was surprisingly decent to drive on the road, better than I expected by quite a bit. My ORP is far more rolly and "soft" feeling handling by comparison. Before the Sport, the only way to get the on-road suspension was the Limited So it makes sense in the lineup IMO. I also suspect that most sales are SR5, OR, and TuRD Bro. Limited having it's own unique suspension for a limited volume doesn't make financial sense, so they were probably trying to boost volume. PLUS, the Sport uses the Limited front fascia which probably has some CAFE/GHG scoring benefits to use on more volume.
That said, I don't understand why anyone would buy an on-road 4R. There's SO MANY other choices that are better for that use case, it just makes no sense.
Wait school me on this what is the difference between the rear suspensions? I figured they are all the same minus the fancy hydraulic option on some of them for the sway bars. And the Turd BROs having the remote reso shocks.
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X-REAS...similar to KDSS (the hydraulically mounted sway bar option on ORs), it basically connects the opposite front and rear shocks together for flatter handling. It's only on the Limited and TuRD Sport...max225 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:18 pmEspecially in 2WD trim... which was around for a bitDetroit wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:08 pm
Not from my experience. The Sport has the Limited rear suspension layout, which is far more street friendly and better for handling. It was surprisingly decent to drive on the road, better than I expected by quite a bit. My ORP is far more rolly and "soft" feeling handling by comparison. Before the Sport, the only way to get the on-road suspension was the Limited So it makes sense in the lineup IMO. I also suspect that most sales are SR5, OR, and TuRD Bro. Limited having it's own unique suspension for a limited volume doesn't make financial sense, so they were probably trying to boost volume. PLUS, the Sport uses the Limited front fascia which probably has some CAFE/GHG scoring benefits to use on more volume.
That said, I don't understand why anyone would buy an on-road 4R. There's SO MANY other choices that are better for that use case, it just makes no sense.
Wait school me on this what is the difference between the rear suspensions? I figured they are all the same minus the fancy hydraulic option on some of them for the sway bars. And the Turd BROs having the remote reso shocks.
So:
KDSS - Hydraulically mounted front sway bar - Option on TuRD OR
X-REAS - Ties front and rear together - Standard on TuRD Sport and Limited
Fox - Different shocks, includes nothing above - Standard on TuRD Bro
The X-REAS was legit on the Sport I drove, it was nice. I imagine KDSS would be nice on the OR, but it's pricey and rare so if you MUST HAVE IT, you'll be making compromises elsewhere. My didn't have a single KDSS equipped 4R coming in at the time I got mine, I'd probably still be waiting if it was a must have. It's a truck and drives like one, I don't mind the rollyness at all Never driven a Bro, no opportunity to. I assume it's probably better than mine on road while maintaining the same off-road performance.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Because my Tahoe has no off road aspirations at all I just went with the Hotchkis bars. That rapper lyfe.Detroit wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:46 pmX-REAS...similar to KDSS (the hydraulically mounted sway bar option on ORs), it basically connects the opposite front and rear shocks together for flatter handling. It's only on the Limited and TuRD Sport...max225 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:18 pm
Especially in 2WD trim... which was around for a bit
Wait school me on this what is the difference between the rear suspensions? I figured they are all the same minus the fancy hydraulic option on some of them for the sway bars. And the Turd BROs having the remote reso shocks.
So:
KDSS - Hydraulically mounted front sway bar - Option on TuRD OR
X-REAS - Ties front and rear together - Standard on TuRD Sport and Limited
Fox - Different shocks, includes nothing above - Standard on TuRD Bro
The X-REAS was legit on the Sport I drove, it was nice. I imagine KDSS would be nice on the OR, but it's pricey and rare so if you MUST HAVE IT, you'll be making compromises elsewhere. My didn't have a single KDSS equipped 4R coming in at the time I got mine, I'd probably still be waiting if it was a must have. It's a truck and drives like one, I don't mind the rollyness at all Never driven a Bro, no opportunity to. I assume it's probably better than mine on road while maintaining the same off-road performance.
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No T1 Tahoe has off road aspirations. Even the Z71 is just a poser, just look at how low the rear control arms hang.Desertbreh wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:52 pmBecause my Tahoe has no off road aspirations at all I just went with the Hotchkis bars. That rapper lyfe.Detroit wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:46 pm
X-REAS...similar to KDSS (the hydraulically mounted sway bar option on ORs), it basically connects the opposite front and rear shocks together for flatter handling. It's only on the Limited and TuRD Sport...
So:
KDSS - Hydraulically mounted front sway bar - Option on TuRD OR
X-REAS - Ties front and rear together - Standard on TuRD Sport and Limited
Fox - Different shocks, includes nothing above - Standard on TuRD Bro
The X-REAS was legit on the Sport I drove, it was nice. I imagine KDSS would be nice on the OR, but it's pricey and rare so if you MUST HAVE IT, you'll be making compromises elsewhere. My didn't have a single KDSS equipped 4R coming in at the time I got mine, I'd probably still be waiting if it was a must have. It's a truck and drives like one, I don't mind the rollyness at all Never driven a Bro, no opportunity to. I assume it's probably better than mine on road while maintaining the same off-road performance.
Yours on dub deuces and hotchkiss bars is Excellent call IMO
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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I'm K2, I avoid the control arm hang and Suburbanesque length. My buddy has one, the interior is a bit nicer but it has the dumb giant pano roof. He has the Premier I do like the quad integrated exit tips (very high quality, Corvettish) he just needs some BROLA mufflers.Detroit wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:57 pmNo T1 Tahoe has off road aspirations. Even the Z71 is just a poser, just look at how low the rear control arms hang.Desertbreh wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:52 pm
Because my Tahoe has no off road aspirations at all I just went with the Hotchkis bars. That rapper lyfe.
Yours on dub deuces and hotchkiss bars is Excellent call IMO
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That's right! I forgot you got the K2 and your buddy got the T1.Desertbreh wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 2:07 pmI'm K2, I avoid the control arm hang and Suburbanesque length. My buddy has one, the interior is a bit nicer but it has the dumb giant pano roof. He has the Premier I do like the quad integrated exit tips (very high quality, Corvettish) he just needs some BROLA mufflers.
Still, K2s aren't really off-roady at all either. Maximize pavement pounding potential 100%.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Great info ty!Detroit wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:46 pmX-REAS...similar to KDSS (the hydraulically mounted sway bar option on ORs), it basically connects the opposite front and rear shocks together for flatter handling. It's only on the Limited and TuRD Sport...max225 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:18 pm
Especially in 2WD trim... which was around for a bit
Wait school me on this what is the difference between the rear suspensions? I figured they are all the same minus the fancy hydraulic option on some of them for the sway bars. And the Turd BROs having the remote reso shocks.
So:
KDSS - Hydraulically mounted front sway bar - Option on TuRD OR
X-REAS - Ties front and rear together - Standard on TuRD Sport and Limited
Fox - Different shocks, includes nothing above - Standard on TuRD Bro
The X-REAS was legit on the Sport I drove, it was nice. I imagine KDSS would be nice on the OR, but it's pricey and rare so if you MUST HAVE IT, you'll be making compromises elsewhere. My didn't have a single KDSS equipped 4R coming in at the time I got mine, I'd probably still be waiting if it was a must have. It's a truck and drives like one, I don't mind the rollyness at all Never driven a Bro, no opportunity to. I assume it's probably better than mine on road while maintaining the same off-road performance.
So presumably there is
1. Sr5 base suspension
2. Sport/limited suspension
3. OR with billstein
4. oR with kdss
5. Trd Bro
5 different suspensions for the same vehicle … that’s insane. And very untoyota like
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I'm actually not sure there's anything different between the SR5 suspension and the OR...I think OR is just poverty suspension, it's way too lose to be anything fancy.max225 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 2:32 pmGreat info ty!Detroit wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 1:46 pm
X-REAS...similar to KDSS (the hydraulically mounted sway bar option on ORs), it basically connects the opposite front and rear shocks together for flatter handling. It's only on the Limited and TuRD Sport...
So:
KDSS - Hydraulically mounted front sway bar - Option on TuRD OR
X-REAS - Ties front and rear together - Standard on TuRD Sport and Limited
Fox - Different shocks, includes nothing above - Standard on TuRD Bro
The X-REAS was legit on the Sport I drove, it was nice. I imagine KDSS would be nice on the OR, but it's pricey and rare so if you MUST HAVE IT, you'll be making compromises elsewhere. My didn't have a single KDSS equipped 4R coming in at the time I got mine, I'd probably still be waiting if it was a must have. It's a truck and drives like one, I don't mind the rollyness at all Never driven a Bro, no opportunity to. I assume it's probably better than mine on road while maintaining the same off-road performance.
So presumably there is
1. Sr5 base suspension
2. Sport/limited suspension
3. OR with billstein
4. oR with kdss
5. Trd Bro
5 different suspensions for the same vehicle … that’s insane. And very untoyota like
SR5/OR
OR with KDSS
Sport/Limited
TuRD Bro Fox
Yea, that's a lot of complexity for Toyota. But the rest of the vehicle has minimal complexity and has been around forever, so it's probably manageable. A ton of people complain about how soft the SR5/OR is, and X-REAS addresses that really well, so the suspension makes sense. But I suspect most buyers are like me who don't care about the soft base/OR suspension, and Toyota saves quite a bit of money by keeping that as the volume.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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I thought the OR came with billsteins? That must be a tacoma thing... For tacoma it was SR5 base TR OR with Billsteins and TRD pro.Detroit wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 3:48 pmI'm actually not sure there's anything different between the SR5 suspension and the OR...I think OR is just poverty suspension, it's way too lose to be anything fancy.
SR5/OR
OR with KDSS
Sport/Limited
TuRD Bro Fox
Yea, that's a lot of complexity for Toyota. But the rest of the vehicle has minimal complexity and has been around forever, so it's probably manageable. A ton of people complain about how soft the SR5/OR is, and X-REAS addresses that really well, so the suspension makes sense. But I suspect most buyers are like me who don't care about the soft base/OR suspension, and Toyota saves quite a bit of money by keeping that as the volume.
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I can't find anything about that in particular, which is why I assume SR5 and OR are the same. I'd be shocked (har) if my truck had fancy shocks on it, it's really soft and rolly. Fancy shocks tend to be firmer, and I don't want that.max225 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 4:39 pmI thought the OR came with billsteins? That must be a tacoma thing... For tacoma it was SR5 base TR OR with Billsteins and TRD pro.Detroit wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 3:48 pm
I'm actually not sure there's anything different between the SR5 suspension and the OR...I think OR is just poverty suspension, it's way too lose to be anything fancy.
SR5/OR
OR with KDSS
Sport/Limited
TuRD Bro Fox
Yea, that's a lot of complexity for Toyota. But the rest of the vehicle has minimal complexity and has been around forever, so it's probably manageable. A ton of people complain about how soft the SR5/OR is, and X-REAS addresses that really well, so the suspension makes sense. But I suspect most buyers are like me who don't care about the soft base/OR suspension, and Toyota saves quite a bit of money by keeping that as the volume.
Tacoma has more differentiation between trims it seems. But at double the volume, Toyota can afford to do that.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Which is why IDGAF about the stock shocks. If I don't like it, easy fix.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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I have added brosteins to numerous vehicles and been pleased every time. B8s are going on the BMW in 10K miles. They are better dampers in almost all cases than stock.