Car Talk 2: Un-American Motor Company.

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Davestr
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Interesting read on DCT vs Manual - http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture ... -on-track/
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Davestr wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:03 pm Interesting read on DCT vs Manual - http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture ... -on-track/
Pdk is faster and some prefer manuals for fun, in other news the sky is blue :mindblown:
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Davestr wrote:Interesting read on DCT vs Manual - http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture ... -on-track/
:dat:
Nobody but a buffoon would buy a road-going performance car with the sole purpose of setting lap times. You do it because you want to enjoy yourself behind the wheel.
Automatic sports cars are for morans.
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troyguitar wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:15 pm
Davestr wrote:Interesting read on DCT vs Manual - http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture ... -on-track/
:dat:
Nobody but a buffoon would buy a road-going performance car with the sole purpose of setting lap times. You do it because you want to enjoy yourself behind the wheel.
Automatic sports cars are for morans.
Each moran can choose to spend his money his way. Ive had both now and can appreciate both. Come here and tell the moran's how to drive at the 24hrs of Nurburgring as they use PDK type gearboxes to run that track. :lol:

Your no more or less a man if you drive either one. Its just driving.
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Davestr wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:33 pm
troyguitar wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:15 pm :dat:



Automatic sports cars are for morans.
Each moran can choose to spend his money his way. Ive had both now and can appreciate both. Come here and tell the moran's how to drive at the 24hrs of Nurburgring as they use PDK type gearboxes to run that track. :lol:

Your no more or less a man if you drive either one. Its just driving.
:dat:

But, knowing how to drive a :manuel: is at least a good skill to have
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Devilchrono wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:40 pm
Davestr wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:33 pm

Each moran can choose to spend his money his way. Ive had both now and can appreciate both. Come here and tell the moran's how to drive at the 24hrs of Nurburgring as they use PDK type gearboxes to run that track. :lol:

Your no more or less a man if you drive either one. Its just driving.
:dat:

But, knowing how to drive a :manuel: is at least a good skill to have
I have it. World turns that now I have a car with DCT as well. Joking or not the manual vs DCT auto talk is pointless and for the most part the folks vehement about manuals or else world ends are usually the MORONS. It might be a good skill to have an open mind and appreciate both for what they are in the larger scheme.

This is an interesting read by an actual industry expert on the subject and the physics and reality of both - Of course he is a moran to some here LOL - http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/ca ... -are-dead/

Lamborghinis are supposed to be about raw emotion: the scream of a V12 engine, the thrill of mile-wide tires scrambling for grip, the joy of driving something built without a single care thrown toward convenience, practicality, or the rigors of everyday humdrum life.

You'd think a manual transmission would fit the formula perfectly.

But at the Frankfurt Auto Show last week, R&T sat down with Maurizio Reggiani, Director of Research and Development at Lamborghini. And while the Lamborghini news at the show was the introduction of the Huracán LP 610-4 Spyder, we couldn't help asking Mr. Reggiani a question that's been weighing on our minds: Is the dream of a manual-transmission Lamborghini dead?

"Unfortunately I must say yes," he told us. "All the systems that are integrated in the car need to have a dialog with one another. The clutch is one of the fuses of the system, whether you're engaging or disengaging the torque. This creates a hole in the communication between what the engine is able to provide and how the car reacts to the power of the engine. For this reason, unfortunately, I must say I am sure that in a premium supersports car like the Huracán, we will only do a semiautomatic.

"Unfortunately, it's the demand of the control of the chassis," he continued. "If you want to control the chassis, you must control the power. If you want to control the power, the clutch must be under the control of the brain of the car, not your brain."

This decision wasn't easy, and Mr. Reggiani understands the yearning among traditionalists for a three-pedal Lamborghini. But he brings up a very good point about modern manual transmissions, one that doesn't get discussed very often among three-pedal evangelists: Today's manual transmissions aren't the pure, directly-connected driver's experience you think they are.

It all comes down to the mechanics of what happens when you push the clutch pedal. "Remember, when you put a servo system between your feet and the clutch, you have already put a filter in there. For me, the most pure expression of the manual transmission is when with your foot you push all the load that is necessary to disengage the clutch."

So when people pining for manual transmissions hold up today's three-pedal sports cars as standard bearers of purity, it puzzles Mr. Reggiani. "In all the latest manual transmissions, there is a servo that reduces the load [of the clutch pedal]," he explains. "If we want to talk about the purist [experience], we must go back 20 years, not 10 years, because already these filters were in place.

Then there's the practical side. "I've been working for Lamborghini for 20 years. I started at the time of the Diablo, [which had] a clutch without a servo. You needed 40 kilograms of force to disengage the clutch. At that time, we were making 450 N m of torque. Now we are at 690. It's a problem to manage the closing point of the clutch. If you have hesitation, with this torque you'll burn the clutch immediately.

"And unfortunately not everybody can be a super expert, but everybody wants to buy the car and nobody wants to appear stupid. For this, you must put the servo in there, and if you put the servo in there you disengage the really mechanical feeling between you and the engine."

In other words, if you want a Lamborghini with power like the 740-hp Aventador LP750-4 SV, you're gonna have to settle for a transmission that's smarter than you. As for Mr. Reggiani? When he wants to get that purist mechanical feel, he hops in his 1966 Alfa Romeo Duetto, with a manual transmission and no servos in sight.
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Davestr wrote:
troyguitar wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:15 pm :dat:
Automatic sports cars are for morans.
Each moran can choose to spend his money his way. Ive had both now and can appreciate both. Come here and tell the moran's how to drive at the 24hrs of Nurburgring as they use PDK type gearboxes to run that track. Image

Your no more or less a man if you drive either one. Its just driving.
Which series do you race in?
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Davestr wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:47 pm
Devilchrono wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:40 pm

:dat:

But, knowing how to drive a :manuel: is at least a good skill to have
I have it. World turns that now I have a car with DCT as well. Joking or not the manual vs DCT auto talk is pointless and for the most part the folks vehement about manuals or else world ends are usually the MORONS. It might be a good skill to have an open mind and appreciate both for what they are in the larger scheme.

This is an interesting read by an actual industry expert on the subject and the physics and reality of both - Of course he is a moran to some here LOL - http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/ca ... -are-dead/

Lamborghinis are supposed to be about raw emotion: the scream of a V12 engine, the thrill of mile-wide tires scrambling for grip, the joy of driving something built without a single care thrown toward convenience, practicality, or the rigors of everyday humdrum life.

You'd think a manual transmission would fit the formula perfectly.

But at the Frankfurt Auto Show last week, R&T sat down with Maurizio Reggiani, Director of Research and Development at Lamborghini. And while the Lamborghini news at the show was the introduction of the Huracán LP 610-4 Spyder, we couldn't help asking Mr. Reggiani a question that's been weighing on our minds: Is the dream of a manual-transmission Lamborghini dead?

"Unfortunately I must say yes," he told us. "All the systems that are integrated in the car need to have a dialog with one another. The clutch is one of the fuses of the system, whether you're engaging or disengaging the torque. This creates a hole in the communication between what the engine is able to provide and how the car reacts to the power of the engine. For this reason, unfortunately, I must say I am sure that in a premium supersports car like the Huracán, we will only do a semiautomatic.

"Unfortunately, it's the demand of the control of the chassis," he continued. "If you want to control the chassis, you must control the power. If you want to control the power, the clutch must be under the control of the brain of the car, not your brain."

This decision wasn't easy, and Mr. Reggiani understands the yearning among traditionalists for a three-pedal Lamborghini. But he brings up a very good point about modern manual transmissions, one that doesn't get discussed very often among three-pedal evangelists: Today's manual transmissions aren't the pure, directly-connected driver's experience you think they are.

It all comes down to the mechanics of what happens when you push the clutch pedal. "Remember, when you put a servo system between your feet and the clutch, you have already put a filter in there. For me, the most pure expression of the manual transmission is when with your foot you push all the load that is necessary to disengage the clutch."

So when people pining for manual transmissions hold up today's three-pedal sports cars as standard bearers of purity, it puzzles Mr. Reggiani. "In all the latest manual transmissions, there is a servo that reduces the load [of the clutch pedal]," he explains. "If we want to talk about the purist [experience], we must go back 20 years, not 10 years, because already these filters were in place.

Then there's the practical side. "I've been working for Lamborghini for 20 years. I started at the time of the Diablo, [which had] a clutch without a servo. You needed 40 kilograms of force to disengage the clutch. At that time, we were making 450 N m of torque. Now we are at 690. It's a problem to manage the closing point of the clutch. If you have hesitation, with this torque you'll burn the clutch immediately.

"And unfortunately not everybody can be a super expert, but everybody wants to buy the car and nobody wants to appear stupid. For this, you must put the servo in there, and if you put the servo in there you disengage the really mechanical feeling between you and the engine."

In other words, if you want a Lamborghini with power like the 740-hp Aventador LP750-4 SV, you're gonna have to settle for a transmission that's smarter than you. As for Mr. Reggiani? When he wants to get that purist mechanical feel, he hops in his 1966 Alfa Romeo Duetto, with a manual transmission and no servos in sight.
Oh, I think you misunderstood me. I'm agreeing with you 100%. The debate is pointless, especially this day and age when we've got the DCT/PDK style transmission we have now. I'd rather have a fun care with a good auto than a manual anyway, as I get more joy out of being able to focus on the car in the surroundings than making sure I have a part of my brain focused on shifting, no matter how comfortable I am with the car.
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Devilchrono wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:35 pm
Davestr wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:47 pm

I have it. World turns that now I have a car with DCT as well. Joking or not the manual vs DCT auto talk is pointless and for the most part the folks vehement about manuals or else world ends are usually the MORONS. It might be a good skill to have an open mind and appreciate both for what they are in the larger scheme.

This is an interesting read by an actual industry expert on the subject and the physics and reality of both - Of course he is a moran to some here LOL - http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/ca ... -are-dead/

Lamborghinis are supposed to be about raw emotion: the scream of a V12 engine, the thrill of mile-wide tires scrambling for grip, the joy of driving something built without a single care thrown toward convenience, practicality, or the rigors of everyday humdrum life.

You'd think a manual transmission would fit the formula perfectly.

But at the Frankfurt Auto Show last week, R&T sat down with Maurizio Reggiani, Director of Research and Development at Lamborghini. And while the Lamborghini news at the show was the introduction of the Huracán LP 610-4 Spyder, we couldn't help asking Mr. Reggiani a question that's been weighing on our minds: Is the dream of a manual-transmission Lamborghini dead?

"Unfortunately I must say yes," he told us. "All the systems that are integrated in the car need to have a dialog with one another. The clutch is one of the fuses of the system, whether you're engaging or disengaging the torque. This creates a hole in the communication between what the engine is able to provide and how the car reacts to the power of the engine. For this reason, unfortunately, I must say I am sure that in a premium supersports car like the Huracán, we will only do a semiautomatic.

"Unfortunately, it's the demand of the control of the chassis," he continued. "If you want to control the chassis, you must control the power. If you want to control the power, the clutch must be under the control of the brain of the car, not your brain."

This decision wasn't easy, and Mr. Reggiani understands the yearning among traditionalists for a three-pedal Lamborghini. But he brings up a very good point about modern manual transmissions, one that doesn't get discussed very often among three-pedal evangelists: Today's manual transmissions aren't the pure, directly-connected driver's experience you think they are.

It all comes down to the mechanics of what happens when you push the clutch pedal. "Remember, when you put a servo system between your feet and the clutch, you have already put a filter in there. For me, the most pure expression of the manual transmission is when with your foot you push all the load that is necessary to disengage the clutch."

So when people pining for manual transmissions hold up today's three-pedal sports cars as standard bearers of purity, it puzzles Mr. Reggiani. "In all the latest manual transmissions, there is a servo that reduces the load [of the clutch pedal]," he explains. "If we want to talk about the purist [experience], we must go back 20 years, not 10 years, because already these filters were in place.

Then there's the practical side. "I've been working for Lamborghini for 20 years. I started at the time of the Diablo, [which had] a clutch without a servo. You needed 40 kilograms of force to disengage the clutch. At that time, we were making 450 N m of torque. Now we are at 690. It's a problem to manage the closing point of the clutch. If you have hesitation, with this torque you'll burn the clutch immediately.

"And unfortunately not everybody can be a super expert, but everybody wants to buy the car and nobody wants to appear stupid. For this, you must put the servo in there, and if you put the servo in there you disengage the really mechanical feeling between you and the engine."

In other words, if you want a Lamborghini with power like the 740-hp Aventador LP750-4 SV, you're gonna have to settle for a transmission that's smarter than you. As for Mr. Reggiani? When he wants to get that purist mechanical feel, he hops in his 1966 Alfa Romeo Duetto, with a manual transmission and no servos in sight.
Oh, I think you misunderstood me. I'm agreeing with you 100%. The debate is pointless, especially this day and age when we've got the DCT/PDK style transmission we have now. I'd rather have a fun care with a good auto than a manual anyway, as I get more joy out of being able to focus on the car in the surroundings than making sure I have a part of my brain focused on shifting, no matter how comfortable I am with the car.
Totally in agreement with you as well!!! Pointless debate......just enjoy driving as you feel it works for you!!
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Davestr wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:13 am
Devilchrono wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:35 pm

Oh, I think you misunderstood me. I'm agreeing with you 100%. The debate is pointless, especially this day and age when we've got the DCT/PDK style transmission we have now. I'd rather have a fun care with a good auto than a manual anyway, as I get more joy out of being able to focus on the car in the surroundings than making sure I have a part of my brain focused on shifting, no matter how comfortable I am with the car.
Totally in agreement with you as well!!! Pointless debate......just enjoy driving as you feel it works for you!!
:like:
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Eco mode is terribad I haven’t used it since trying it ... turns car into a Prius that is firing on 2 cyl
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max225 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:25 am Eco mode is terribad I haven’t used it since trying it ... turns car into a Prius that is firing on 2 cyl
I never have an issue with it. When cruizing along in a 30 or 50kmph zone on flat road. Saves gas, builds range and is just not an issue.
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http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture ... ra-type-r/


The Magic of the Integra Type R

Editor-at-large Sam Smith recently spent a few days with an Integra Type R. He loved it so much, he bought it.
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http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/ca ... he-old-v6/


Dyno Testing the Honda Accord's New Turbo Motor Against the Old V6

The new Honda Accord is only available with a 2.0-liter turbo four-cylinder. How does it compare to the old 3.5-liter V6? We hit the dyno with both to find out.
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Davestr wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:28 am http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/ca ... he-old-v6/


Dyno Testing the Honda Accord's New Turbo Motor Against the Old V6

The new Honda Accord is only available with a 2.0-liter turbo four-cylinder. How does it compare to the old 3.5-liter V6? We hit the dyno with both to find out.
So the 2.0 is less reliable not anymore fuel efficient and slower. Where do I sign up ?!
:thanksobama:
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Davestr wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:27 am http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture ... ra-type-r/


The Magic of the Integra Type R

Editor-at-large Sam Smith recently spent a few days with an Integra Type R. He loved it so much, he bought it.
The only thing truly “great” about this vehicle is the rarity. At the end of the day a s2000 is a better sports car in every way for half the price.
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Davestr wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:27 am
max225 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:25 am Eco mode is terribad I haven’t used it since trying it ... turns car into a Prius that is firing on 2 cyl
I never have an issue with it. When cruizing along in a 30 or 50kmph zone on flat road. Saves gas, builds range and is just not an issue.
It doesn’t save gas unless you change the way you drive. And it modifies the throttle response and drops an anchor every time you get off the gas
Last edited by max225 on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Max an M2 in the UK with ZCP/Comp Pkg 20 in rims -

Image
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Davestr wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:37 am Max an M2 in the UK with ZCP/Comp Pkg 20 in rims -

Image
Dig the m2 a lot! Not sure about the dubs though... has anyone put the base 18” from the m3 on it ?
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max225 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:36 am
Davestr wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:27 am

I never have an issue with it. When cruizing along in a 30 or 50kmph zone on flat road. Saves gas, builds range and is just not an issue.
It doesn’t save gas unless you change the way you drive. And it modifies the throttle response and drops an anchor every time you get off the gas
:dat: I remember when I took my :turboyaris: for wheel replacement for a week, I had a civic 9th gen rental from enterprise, and I managed to drive the thing from 37 mpg when I got it and returned it at 26 mpg. The green Econ mode did not help, I just simply gave more gas to get going :lol:
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max225 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 am
Davestr wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:37 am Max an M2 in the UK with ZCP/Comp Pkg 20 in rims -

Image
Dig the m2 a lot! Not sure about the dubs though... has anyone put the base 18” from the m3 on it ?
Yes actually a guy in Belgium has them on for winter! I think I know where that pic is....
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Max the 18's on an M2 -

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Davestr wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:08 pm Max the 18's on an M2 -

Image
Oh wow, thanks for posting it! Looks interesting. Kind of an odd angle for the car doe ...

I’m going to the SF car show today, will post pics
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max225 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:13 pm
Davestr wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:08 pm Max the 18's on an M2 -

Image
Oh wow, thanks for posting it! Looks interesting. Kind of an odd angle for the car doe ...

I’m going to the SF car show today, will post pics
Ok super! Looking foward to the pics!
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max225 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:13 pm I’m going to the SF car show today, will post pics
I was going to go today too, but this cold kicked in on it's third wind... #ithinkimdying
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