That's likely a very small number. Americans pay a fuck ton of taxes. We are at a brink. Any new thing is low hanging fruit and becames the new "issue" to focus on.
If the people were truly looking to show up and assimliate there are ample ways. They could also show up and hang out in Mexico. Oh wait. That's another shit hole country with less freebies.
The freebie thing simply isn't true.
It is a common misconception in Mexico amoung the middle to lower class that there are many "free services" available in the US. They focus on our social security/disability.
They are also oblivious as to the actual cost of living in the US. The mindset of xyz dollars here to there doesn't equate in the lower classes of people (ie the people coming here by the millions each year)
Source: several Mexican citizen co-workers that did immigration the right way and conversations with their families about living in the great America and collecting money at 62. Ive also spent a summer studying in Mexico City and had a lot of interesting conversations. In full disclosure: I do not like the country of Mexico and would never go back, but they have a lot of 5/7 citizens and culture. You guys would be absolutely at their conditions of life there for lower classes. I sleep just fine knowing them sitting in a detention center with food, water, bathrooms, tv and AC is better than what they left.
Last edited by dubshow on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That's likely a very small number. Americans pay a fuck ton of taxes. We are at a brink. Any new thing is low hanging fruit and becames the new "issue" to focus on.
If the people were truly looking to show up and assimliate there are ample ways. They could also show up and hang out in Mexico. Oh wait. That's another shit hole country with less freebies.
Bruh, we are different than LITERALLY every other country. That "average" is not an accurate representation:
Not taken into account:
Social Security Tax
Property Tax - oh hey that varies per state/county (sometimes wildly)
Sales Tax ON (wildly varies but up to 11%) EVERY CENT EARNED THAT YOU ALREADY taxed on....
Health insurance TAX (every country above us in your source is rolled into the tax vs gdp homie....)
Fuel Tax
Driving Taxes etc the list goes on.
It is a common misconception in Mexico amoung the middle to lower class that there are many "free services" available in the US. They focus on our social security/disability.
They are also oblivious as to the actual cost of living in the US. The mindset of xyz dollars here to there doesn't equate in the lower classes of people (ie the people coming here by the millions each year)
Source: several Mexican citizen co-workers that did immigration the right way and conversations with their families about living in the great America and collecting money at 62. Ive also spent a summer studying in Mexico City and had a lot of interesting conversations. In full disclosure: I do not like the country of Mexico and would never go back, but they have a lot of 5/7 citizens and culture. You guys would be absolutely at their conditions of life there for lower classes. I sleep just fine knowing them sitting in a detention center with food, water, bathrooms, tv and AC is better than what they left.
I suspect this WAS very true but out of date. Bigly because very few Mexicans are actually trying to come now, second because the ones that did are often back and forth over the border seasonally.
As for the bolded... Mexico is NICE comparatively to a huge portion of the world.
To mention again, these people are not Mexican. They're from Central America and fleeing deadly violence and are seeking asylum, not "our jobs". Conditions in Mexico, which is not a third world country, are irrelevant to this discussion.
Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm
I don't understand anything anymore.
KYGTIGuy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:04 pm
Much Respect dubshow for showing up here and getting "Shit on" in this thread.
I only care to voice my opinion because I don't mind you guys. Even if I am up against a harsh collective. I have a little time to discuss topics today.
I am always open to admitting where I am
I will concede if someone best me with facts. Sadly opinions and feels clutter objectivity and logic.
Bruh, we are different than LITERALLY every other country. That "average" is not an accurate representation:
Not taken into account:
Social Security Tax
Property Tax - oh hey that varies per state/county (sometimes wildly)
Sales Tax ON (wildly varies but up to 11%) EVERY CENT EARNED THAT YOU ALREADY taxed on....
Health insurance TAX (every country above us in your source is rolled into the tax vs gdp homie....)
Fuel Tax
Driving Taxes etc the list goes on.
They also most all pay VAT, which we don't.
Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm
I don't understand anything anymore.
I suspect this WAS very true but out of date. Bigly because very few Mexicans are actually trying to come now, second because the ones that did are often back and forth over the border seasonally.
As for the bolded... Mexico is NICE comparatively to a huge portion of the world.
Conditions in Mexico, which is not a third world country, are irrelevant to this discussion.
How? Just how is the condition of Mexico irrelevant ?? Its the MASSIVE country they passed through to come here. I know just fine and well the make up (Hondurans and Guatemalans) coming here.
-story time- I had a high school friend (at a boarding school) come here for 5 years. 8th-12th. He father was the largest melon farmer in Guatemala. He was kidnapped and recovered then shipped to the US for school/safety. The summer he graduated and went home, he was kidnapped again, just 3 weeks after being back. This time they only mailed his family parts. (circa 2004) -end sad story-
I get it but seriously... Why do they chose the US over Mexico? A large number of them DID stop in Mexico. Why didnt the rest?
Good discussion on borders/illegals. This one is an interesting one for me because I am an idealist in a lot of ways but also more practical in others.
The idealist in me thinks invisible lines drawn in the ground are bad. The planet belongs to all life and all life should be able to find a place for themselves without issue or interference. Unfortunately, the very few societies in human history that lived this way were cannibalized after a certain period of time by other more aspiring imperial groups of people. Thus the paradox exists that societies who value having open borders actually need them the most to survive... or at least have a super strong military to protect their non-existent borders... but once they do this once they've essentially created a border.
Therefore, the practical side of me sees borders as necessary and if a border exists then it is reasonable to expect some form of consequence for violating that border. Else the border is essentially useless.
So now we have this great debate over the handling of the consequences for trying to bypass the border in this country. Frankly, I don't see a solution that would appease everyone.
On one side you see images of 3 year olds ripped from their loving parents arms. On the other you see teenage girls sent by their parents... alone... to make the illegal journey and providing them with the day after pill because they know that they will be used by men on the way there.
there is no way this is true. I dont think you realize how many taxes are hidden. or you do and just have so much that another 25-50% is NBD?
With what I have, my mortgage is paid, cars are paid, no other types of debt, college is funded to be paid for totally for both kids, retirement funded, vacations available, and this is with the Mrs working 1/3rd time.
A lot of this is because I don't spend nearly as much as many people. So fiscal discipline.
But what I contribute in taxes can't be ignored.
YOU ARE THE FUCKING 1% [user not found]... and you still pay a drop in the bucket of tax burden. The .01%? They front our insane spending. They also own the companies which own the .gov policy.
Man, you guys just don't have a grasp on how many poor people we have. didn't have any clue he was in the top 10% of earners. I am solidly in the 16% of earners... and I feel pretty fucking poor in contrast.
Your favorite saying [user not found], "I am already rich, I just have to find a way to stay rich" goes in direct counter-logic to the group you feel you "morally" align with and then lump politics with "morals". The current people that are crying about inequality and bemoaning Trump are the same people that would put your head on a rainbow spike.
I keep a hard line in between the role of "morals" and politics. "The road to hell is paved with good intention"
[user not found] wrote: ↑Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:40 pm
Actually the recent posts inadvertently start to get us to the real cure for this whole mess, that pretty much everyone on here will agree upon.
Fix the damn drug laws.
Well, you would say "False equivalency"
I would say each topic we are arguing (or discussing) is EQUALLY important as they are all interlinked, whether you like it or not.
And to go to the tip of the iceberg, drugs. Yes. At best we are spit balling hypotheticals to hopefully get the ball rolling on changes.
At worst, we are small microcosm just circle jerking and point fingers on the internet.
With what I have, my mortgage is paid, cars are paid, no other types of debt, college is funded to be paid for totally for both kids, retirement funded, vacations available, and this is with the Mrs working 1/3rd time.
A lot of this is because I don't spend nearly as much as many people. So fiscal discipline.
But what I contribute in taxes can't be ignored.
YOU ARE THE FUCKING 1% [user not found]... and you still pay a drop in the bucket of tax burden. The .01%? They front our insane spending. They also own the companies which own the .gov policy.
Man, you guys just don't have a grasp on how many poor people we have. didn't have any clue he was in the top 10% of earners. I am solidly in the 16% of earners... and I feel pretty fucking poor in contrast.
Your favorite saying [user not found], "I am already rich, I just have to find a way to stay rich" goes in direct counter-logic to the group you feel you "morally" align with and then lump politics with "morals". The current people that are crying about inequality and bemoaning Trump are the same people that would put your head on a rainbow spike.
I keep a hard line in between the role of "morals" and politics. "The road to hell is paved with good intention"
I agree that morals are a waste to spend any time on... morals change with the wind... moving target. However, it sounds like you have a problem with people who succeed based on some sort of moral argument... is that right?
[user not found] wrote: ↑Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:03 pm
One last point for now, the origins of this crisis:
Back about six years ago, we wanted to get a bunch of people out of American prisons to save money (this was a bipartisan effort), so we sent all these bad hombres home to their counties to serve out their prison terms. There were almost all from Honduras and Guetmala.
Fast forward four years to a couple years ago, these guys start getting out of prison and start running shit in those two counties. Trump's obsession with MS-13? It's these guys. Side note: MS-13 isn't a South American gang that came to the states, it's is U.S. Prison gang that moved south then north again, WE created them.
Now the law abiding families from these places (lots of families of murdered cops by the way) are the ones we are stopping at the border. They aren't Mexican and they aren't coming here simply for opportunity, they are FLEEING.
This shouldn't change our strategy, it just emphasizes we need one.
Yea that needed to be said. We exported MS-13 and are reaping the consequences. These people are asylum seekers, not job stealers.
Hey, we also created ISIS. Just another scare tactic that is less tangible than ms13. Oh and that ENTIRE fucking iran sandbox thing. I just prefer to blame the boomers from eye fucking the globe from 1960-1980, just as the boomers blame the catch all of millennial for shit that is lols. Dont even get me started on Liberia thing.
Point being, too many other issues get ignored to talk about current events. Mainly because history gets overlooked to know the why/how we arrived at our current events...
there is no way this is true. I dont think you realize how many taxes are hidden. or you do and just have so much that another 25-50% is NBD?
With what I have, my mortgage is paid, cars are paid, no other types of debt, college is funded to be paid for totally for both kids, retirement funded, vacations available, and this is with the Mrs working 1/3rd time.
A lot of this is because I don't spend nearly as much as many people. So fiscal discipline.
But what I contribute in taxes can't be ignored.
Thats great for you. But many pole dont have those luxuries. They would be better off making decisions with their income themselves vs letting the government do it for them.
That being said, I respectfully disagree with your statement. If you got to keep and extra 1/3 of what you pay in taxes you could pay down the mortgage faster, or save more, or donate more to causes you find worthy, or buy another Sports sedan brought to you by the former Axis powers.
My point is, everyone would notice an vastly lower tax bill.
[user not found] wrote: ↑Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:40 pm
Actually the recent posts inadvertently start to get us to the real cure for this whole mess, that pretty much everyone on here will agree upon.
Fix the damn drug laws.
And a flat tax, but yes. Legal durgs means less crime and more profit. Source: Colorado.
[user not found] wrote: ↑Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:54 pm
Oh I know I'm in the 2% and I get most of the folks I politically sync with would find me abhorrent. I'm cool with that.
Politics are inextricably linked with morals. My moral framework informs my politics, not the other way around. I suspect yours really does as well.
I think we have a moral responsibility to provide the most amount of OPPORTUNITY to people. I don't think either major political party has that as part of their framework. Currently I identify as a democrat because I think that the current republican party I'd just downright antithetical to that. If my taxes have to go up because of us providing that opportunity, do be it. The economic growth will far allow me to outpace that expense.
You probably remember my fights with KYGTIGUY back in the day.
I'd have minimal objection to a European capitalism framework here. I'd still do me just fine.
Not a moral responsibility... a constitutional one.
Morals as a basis for anything in a free society with representation from just about every other culture in the world is asinine.
YOU ARE THE FUCKING 1% [user not found]... and you still pay a drop in the bucket of tax burden. The .01%? They front our insane spending. They also own the companies which own the .gov policy.
Man, you guys just don't have a grasp on how many poor people we have. didn't have any clue he was in the top 10% of earners. I am solidly in the 16% of earners... and I feel pretty fucking poor in contrast.
Your favorite saying [user not found], "I am already rich, I just have to find a way to stay rich" goes in direct counter-logic to the group you feel you "morally" align with and then lump politics with "morals". The current people that are crying about inequality and bemoaning Trump are the same people that would put your head on a rainbow spike.
I keep a hard line in between the role of "morals" and politics. "The road to hell is paved with good intention"
I agree that morals are a waste to spend any time on... morals change with the wind... moving target. However, it sounds like you have a problem with people who succeed based on some sort of moral argument... is that right?
In what way to you mean succeed? Financially? Spiritually? Morally?
I have zero problem with ANY one succeeding, as long as it was merit based. That's what used to be great about America. It provided the hot bed of ability to succeed. I can't roll my eyes any harder at the privilege argument. However, I will acknowledge that it clearly exist in some pathways of life. So fucking deal with it, dont make it your rally cry. Outperform that privileged white male, your merits won't go unnoticed.
I agree that morals are a waste to spend any time on... morals change with the wind... moving target. However, it sounds like you have a problem with people who succeed based on some sort of moral argument... is that right?
In what way to you mean succeed? Financially? Spiritually? Morally?
I have zero problem with ANY one succeeding, as long as it was merit based. That's what used to be great about America. It provided the hot bed of ability to succeed. I can't roll my eyes any harder at the privilege argument. However, I will acknowledge that it clearly exist in some pathways of life. So fucking deal with it, dont make it your rally cry. Outperform that privileged white male, your merits won't go unnoticed.
In the context of your post... financially. I re-ead your post and realized what you were trying to say.
With what I have, my mortgage is paid, cars are paid, no other types of debt, college is funded to be paid for totally for both kids, retirement funded, vacations available, and this is with the Mrs working 1/3rd time.
A lot of this is because I don't spend nearly as much as many people. So fiscal discipline.
But what I contribute in taxes can't be ignored.
YOU ARE THE FUCKING 1% [user not found]... and you still pay a drop in the bucket of tax burden. The .01%? They front our insane spending. They also own the companies which own the .gov policy.
Man, you guys just don't have a grasp on how many poor people we have. didn't have any clue he was in the top 10% of earners. I am solidly in the 16% of earners... and I feel pretty fucking poor in contrast. I see no reason to put his mechanical head on a spike.
Your favorite saying [user not found], "I am already rich, I just have to find a way to stay rich" goes in direct counter-logic to the group you feel you "morally" align with and then lump politics with "morals". The current people that are crying about inequality and bemoaning Trump are the same people that would put your head on a rainbow spike.
I keep a hard line in between the role of "morals" and politics. "The road to hell is paved with good intention"
There's nothing that says you can't be rich and still be on the side of the moral high ground. Examples: FDR, JFK, RFK, WAP, etc.
Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm
I don't understand anything anymore.
YOU ARE THE FUCKING 1% [user not found]... and you still pay a drop in the bucket of tax burden. The .01%? They front our insane spending. They also own the companies which own the .gov policy.
Man, you guys just don't have a grasp on how many poor people we have. didn't have any clue he was in the top 10% of earners. I am solidly in the 16% of earners... and I feel pretty fucking poor in contrast.
Your favorite saying [user not found], "I am already rich, I just have to find a way to stay rich" goes in direct counter-logic to the group you feel you "morally" align with and then lump politics with "morals". The current people that are crying about inequality and bemoaning Trump are the same people that would put your head on a rainbow spike.
I keep a hard line in between the role of "morals" and politics. "The road to hell is paved with good intention"
Oh I know I'm in the 2% and I get most of the folks I politically sync with would find me abhorrent. I'm cool with that.
Politics are inextricably linked with morals. My moral framework informs my politics, not the other way around. I suspect yours really does as well.
I think we have a moral responsibility to provide the most amount of OPPORTUNITY to people. I don't think either major political party has that as part of their framework. Currently I identify as a democrat because I think that the current republican party I'd just downright antithetical to that. If my taxes have to go up because of us providing that opportunity, do be it. The economic growth will far allow me to outpace that expense.
You probably remember my fights with KYGTIGUY back in the day.
I'd have minimal objection to a European capitalism framework here. I'd still do me just fine.
I have no problem with your wealth. Again, you can be wealthy and liberal. And what is liberal but having empathy for our fellow human beings.
AFAIK you've attained it honestly and legally. Yes, you stand to inherit more wealth but assuming that was not ill-gotten, more power to you.
Procuring wealth is the American way, just don't shit on everyone else to get it in an illegal or dishonest way. I'm a practitioner myself.
Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm
I don't understand anything anymore.
YOU ARE THE FUCKING 1% [user not found]... and you still pay a drop in the bucket of tax burden. The .01%? They front our insane spending. They also own the companies which own the .gov policy.
Man, you guys just don't have a grasp on how many poor people we have. didn't have any clue he was in the top 10% of earners. I am solidly in the 16% of earners... and I feel pretty fucking poor in contrast. I see no reason to put his mechanical head on a spike.
Your favorite saying [user not found], "I am already rich, I just have to find a way to stay rich" goes in direct counter-logic to the group you feel you "morally" align with and then lump politics with "morals". The current people that are crying about inequality and bemoaning Trump are the same people that would put your head on a rainbow spike.
I keep a hard line in between the role of "morals" and politics. "The road to hell is paved with good intention"
There's nothing that says you can't be rich and still be on the side of the moral high ground. Examples: FDR, JFK, RFK, WAP, etc.
Whose morals? From what culture? From what time period?
For one it may be immoral to receive handouts (i.e. the one who takes offense to being offered help... as if they couldn't do it on their own). For another it may be immoral not to give surplus back to needy. Who's morals are right?
Thats great for you. But many pole dont have those luxuries. They would be better off making decisions with their income themselves vs letting the government do it for them.
That being said, I respectfully disagree with your statement. If you got to keep and extra 1/3 of what you pay in taxes you could pay down the mortgage faster, or save more, or donate more to causes you find worthy, or buy another Sports sedan brought to you by the former Axis powers.
My point is, everyone would notice an vastly lower tax bill.
And worse schools and shittier infrastructure...
I think most people pay too much. I think that top five percent doesn't.
Those are the effects that you perceive to be most important and therefore focus on, but for the purposes of this macro style discussion lets just assume all government BS takes a 33% haircut.
33% less money for skoolz does not mean 33% shitter education. Same for roads. same for everything. dollhairs spent =/= quality of service in a linear fashion. As a securty professional you can see this yourself. Sure 24/7 surveillance is the best option BUT you can optimize resources with available budget. The Gov. needs less available budget.
AND, with the money you get to keep, maybe private skool becomes an option?
wap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:08 pm
Yea that needed to be said. We exported MS-13 and are reaping the consequences. These people are asylum seekers, not job stealers.
Hey, we also created ISIS. Just another scare tactic that is less tangible than ms13. Oh and that ENTIRE fucking iran sandbox thing. I just prefer to blame the boomers from eye fucking the globe from 1960-1980, just as the boomers blame the catch all of millennial for shit that is lols. Dont even get me started on Liberia thing.
Point being, too many other issues get ignored to talk about current events. Mainly because history gets overlooked to know the why/how we arrived at our current events...
Correct. We also created the Talaban when we armed them against the Soviet invasion. Reagan was born in 1911. He ain't no boomer.
Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm
I don't understand anything anymore.
Thats great for you. But many pole dont have those luxuries. They would be better off making decisions with their income themselves vs letting the government do it for them.
That being said, I respectfully disagree with your statement. If you got to keep and extra 1/3 of what you pay in taxes you could pay down the mortgage faster, or save more, or donate more to causes you find worthy, or buy another Sports sedan brought to you by the former Axis powers.
My point is, everyone would notice an vastly lower tax bill.
And worse schools and shittier infrastructure...
I think most people pay too much. I think that top five percent doesn't.
And more polluted water and air and no more National Parks and no more NASA and no more CDC, NIH, FDA, etc, etc, etc...
Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm
I don't understand anything anymore.
at their conditions of life there for lower classes. I sleep just fine knowing them sitting in a detention center with food, water, bathrooms, tv and AC is better than what they left.
didn't have any clue he was in the top 10% of earners. I am solidly in the 16% of earners... and I feel pretty fucking poor in contrast.
