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[user not found] wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:22 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:21 pm
He looks out for himself #1. I could tell you countless stories about making my work his own, giving me "autonomy" while dictating every move, blocking other people's internal job moves, etc. I don't think I could get away from him even if I stayed here for at least a few more years.
People do t leave companies, they leave bosses. Example #1 right here. :gtfo:
Well, that's the thing...this is a huge company. If I stick it out and escape at some point, am I in a better position for advancement than if I bounce and start all over? This has been something nagging me at the back of my mind since I first considered looking elsewhere. I've never seen any value in company loyalty, but maybe there is some in larger orgs that I'm discounting too much?
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:49 pm Resurrecting from the dead to not make a new thread...

As some know, I've been in the running for a new job at a new company. Got the offer, money is great, title is fine, negotiated for more vacation so I don't lose any, all seems good. I go to quit and my current boss goes on and on about how big of a mistake it is, how I'm resetting my reputation clock, and that I'd be walking away from a really bright career future. So I ask to detail the career future and he talks about reaching this level and that and that I'm destined for it if I just stick with the company. I ask for a specific timeline, he of course says that's impossible to give. I expected something like this from my boss, I'm extremely undervalued for what I do and he knows it. I've been here for 5 years now in different roles, I'm hardly "job hopping" IMO.

That said, I can't disagree that I've built a really REALLY strong reputation at my current company. I'm trying to do everything possible to not burn any bridges, but it seems like no matter what I do I'll be blacklisted here, which is unfortunate and also a reason I considered leaving in the first place (the culture is insanely good 'ol boy, old school like that). As soon as I officially quit, I'm walked out the door as I'm going to a competitor, so it's a delicate situation.

Financially, it would take me 5 years of 3% pay increases to reach the offer I've been given...and assuming I'd get 3% raises at the new place...the gap is tangible. Even the next level up at my current company probably wouldn't get me to this job offer money. Current boss of course is telling me to ignore the money because I'll make it all up later...which could be true but far from a certainty of course. Opportunity for promotions at new place is admittedly limited because the organization is so flat. I agree with that corp structure in theory, but I don't know how I'd handle potentially little movement.

I'm posting all of this to gauge any one else's experience with such a thing. Foregoing built reputation at a current company and whether or not it harmed you in the long run.
I don't really have experience dealing with this so I read ahead to see what people would say, and [user not found] said what I thought he would say, with which I wholeheartedly agree. If I am not mistaken, as a manager you are SUPPOSED to have a serious love/hate relationship with having your talent poached. Hate because you lost a good guy, love BECAUSE YOU ARE PROBABLY KICKING ASS AT YOUR OWN JOB IF YOUR UNDERLINGS ARE GETTING OFFERS AT OTHER PLACES. This dude doesn't seem like that....SAD! Next point is that if you collectively read your posts about your current employer for the last two years, they are......not good? You're ready for a culture change, man, and to me, knowing your personality, the siren song of "this is a safe place to spend the rest of your life" like it is IBM in 1955 is 1) soul crushing and 2) a flat out fking lie. This guy just sounds like you leaving makes his life more inconvenient. So :gtfo: That's my two cents from the desert.
Last edited by Desertbreh on Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:21 pm
[user not found] wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:14 pm

It's also clear he's way more concerned about the company than your well being. Run from this guy. Even if you stay, get a new manager. This guy has doom written all over him.
He looks out for himself #1. I could tell you countless stories about making my work his own, giving me "autonomy" while dictating every move, blocking other people's internal job moves, etc. I don't think I could get away from him even if I stayed here for at least a few more years.
Reason enough to leave right there.

Time to go to :jeep: :jeep: :jeep: :jeep: :jeep: land!
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:29 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:26 pm
Well, that's the thing...this is a huge company. If I stick it out and escape at some point, am I in a better position for advancement than if I bounce and start all over? This has been something nagging me at the back of my mind since I first considered looking elsewhere. I've never seen any value in company loyalty, but maybe there is some in larger orgs that I'm discounting too much?
There are very few orgs in this company where competitors are the enemy and people don't bounce back and forth all the time. Detroit may be the one place that's true?

15% man... That's real money. And you'll get raises at the new place. You'll NEVER catch up financially.
Detroit is super old school, and I suspect that the competitive nature of "everyone else is horrible" might be pervasive in the industry. Hard to say for sure, but it seems to me that having experience at multiple organizations should be viewed as valuable? If you only ever work at one or two organizations, how do you know what's better/worse?

The money is REALLY tough to pass up. From my research, it's an incredibly aggressive offer for the job, and agreed...I'm not sure I'd ever catch up....assuming I can keep moving at the new place and don't get stuck. HOWEVER I may also be on the verge of pricing myself out of the market if I decide to leave the next place without advancement.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Desertbreh wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:28 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:49 pm Resurrecting from the dead to not make a new thread...

As some know, I've been in the running for a new job at a new company. Got the offer, money is great, title is fine, negotiated for more vacation so I don't lose any, all seems good. I go to quit and my current boss goes on and on about how big of a mistake it is, how I'm resetting my reputation clock, and that I'd be walking away from a really bright career future. So I ask to detail the career future and he talks about reaching this level and that and that I'm destined for it if I just stick with the company. I ask for a specific timeline, he of course says that's impossible to give. I expected something like this from my boss, I'm extremely undervalued for what I do and he knows it. I've been here for 5 years now in different roles, I'm hardly "job hopping" IMO.

That said, I can't disagree that I've built a really REALLY strong reputation at my current company. I'm trying to do everything possible to not burn any bridges, but it seems like no matter what I do I'll be blacklisted here, which is unfortunate and also a reason I considered leaving in the first place (the culture is insanely good 'ol boy, old school like that). As soon as I officially quit, I'm walked out the door as I'm going to a competitor, so it's a delicate situation.

Financially, it would take me 5 years of 3% pay increases to reach the offer I've been given...and assuming I'd get 3% raises at the new place...the gap is tangible. Even the next level up at my current company probably wouldn't get me to this job offer money. Current boss of course is telling me to ignore the money because I'll make it all up later...which could be true but far from a certainty of course. Opportunity for promotions at new place is admittedly limited because the organization is so flat. I agree with that corp structure in theory, but I don't know how I'd handle potentially little movement.

I'm posting all of this to gauge any one else's experience with such a thing. Foregoing built reputation at a current company and whether or not it harmed you in the long run.
I don't really have experience dealing with this so I read ahead to see what people would say, and [user not found] said what I thought he would say, with which I wholeheartedly agree. If I am not mistaken, as a manager you are SUPPOSED to have a serious love/hate relationship with having your talent poached. Hate because you lost a good guy, love BECAUSE YOU ARE PROBABLY KICKING ASS AT YOUR OWN JOB IF YOUR UNDERLINGS ARE GETTING OFFERS AT OTHER PLACES. This dude doesn't seem like that....SAD! Next point is that if you collectively read your posts about your current employer for the last two years, they are......not good? You're ready for a culture change, man, and to me, knowing your personality, the siren song of "this is a safe place to spend the rest of your life" like it is IBM in 1955 is 1) soul crushing and 2) a flat out fking lie. This guy just sounds like you leaving makes his life more inconvenient. So :gtfo: That's my two cents from the desert.
I've been ready for a culture change for a while, it's just incredible the brainwashing that goes on. I could be going to a worse culture, but I doubt it.

Thanks dude, really appreciate the input.

This is why I love you all.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:33 pm
[user not found] wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:29 pm

There are very few orgs in this company where competitors are the enemy and people don't bounce back and forth all the time. Detroit may be the one place that's true?

15% man... That's real money. And you'll get raises at the new place. You'll NEVER catch up financially.
Detroit is super old school, and I suspect that the competitive nature of "everyone else is horrible" might be pervasive in the industry. Hard to say for sure, but it seems to me that having experience at multiple organizations should be viewed as valuable? If you only ever work at one or two organizations, how do you know what's better/worse?

The money is REALLY tough to pass up. From my research, it's an incredibly aggressive offer for the job, and agreed...I'm not sure I'd ever catch up....assuming I can keep moving at the new place and don't get stuck. HOWEVER I may also be on the verge of pricing myself out of the market if I decide to leave the next place without advancement.


This doesn't make any sense though. When we start talking about making TOO MUCH MONEY through an offer at another company, its time to lay off the drugs/you are thinking too hard.
Detroit wrote:Buy 911s instead of diamonds.
Johnny_P wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:21 pm Earn it and burn it, Val.
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:37 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:33 pm
Detroit is super old school, and I suspect that the competitive nature of "everyone else is horrible" might be pervasive in the industry. Hard to say for sure, but it seems to me that having experience at multiple organizations should be viewed as valuable? If you only ever work at one or two organizations, how do you know what's better/worse?

The money is REALLY tough to pass up. From my research, it's an incredibly aggressive offer for the job, and agreed...I'm not sure I'd ever catch up....assuming I can keep moving at the new place and don't get stuck. HOWEVER I may also be on the verge of pricing myself out of the market if I decide to leave the next place without advancement.
Honestly, this is where I am, by a pretty significant margin. It's a fine place to be as long as you only *spend* to your market value and save the rest. If you do that you can always leave for a market value job.
It's a concern. From my research on salaries for this type of job in this area, this offer is near the top end of the pay scale.

I already told the Mrs. that any extra income goes toward the mortgage or savings (same thing, really). We won't change how we live...which we haven't done since we moved to MI and I made A LOT less than I do now. She's totally game.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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[user not found] wrote:
Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:41 pm It's a concern. From my research on salaries for this type of job in this area, this offer is near the top end of the pay scale.

I already told the Mrs. that any extra income goes toward the mortgage or savings (same thing, really). We won't change how we live...which we haven't done since we moved to MI and I made A LOT less than I do now. She's totally game.
Bluntly I'm 27k above market and probably 20k over what someone would pay me as a new guy... it's an issue when considering other roles but thankfully I can take the cut if I find something amazing or I am forced to.
You had been saying you were underpaid for what seems like awhile, what changed?
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:44 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:41 pm
It's a concern. From my research on salaries for this type of job in this area, this offer is near the top end of the pay scale.

I already told the Mrs. that any extra income goes toward the mortgage or savings (same thing, really). We won't change how we live...which we haven't done since we moved to MI and I made A LOT less than I do now. She's totally game.
Bluntly I'm 27k above market and probably 20k over what someone would pay me as a new guy... it's an issue when considering other roles but thankfully I can take the cut if I find something amazing or I am forced to.
Right but looking at your career as requiring a flat line of upwards trajectory is...............crazy? So you got paid more than "market"......that should either motivate you to stay where you are knowing how you or being treated OR objectively weigh the benefits of another job which outweigh the pay.....experience, environment, on and on. I mean, you guys are fucking freemen. If taking a pay cut for a job that is better in every way OR offers a pot of gold like stock options, etc.......there's no reason to do the seppuku.
Detroit wrote:Buy 911s instead of diamonds.
Johnny_P wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:21 pm Earn it and burn it, Val.
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:44 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:41 pm
It's a concern. From my research on salaries for this type of job in this area, this offer is near the top end of the pay scale.

I already told the Mrs. that any extra income goes toward the mortgage or savings (same thing, really). We won't change how we live...which we haven't done since we moved to MI and I made A LOT less than I do now. She's totally game.
Bluntly I'm 27k above market and probably 20k over what someone would pay me as a new guy... it's an issue when considering other roles but thankfully I can take the cut if I find something amazing or I am forced to.
Being cognizant of your situation is really smart IMO. It's something I'm keeping track of, though at the top of the range, I'm not sure I'm above the market just yet, but close.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Desertbreh wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:50 pm
[user not found] wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:44 pm

Bluntly I'm 27k above market and probably 20k over what someone would pay me as a new guy... it's an issue when considering other roles but thankfully I can take the cut if I find something amazing or I am forced to.
Right but looking at your career as requiring a flat line of upwards trajectory is...............crazy? So you got paid more than "market"......that should either motivate you to stay where you are knowing how you or being treated OR objectively weigh the benefits of another job which outweigh the pay.....experience, environment, on and on. I mean, you guys are fucking freemen. If taking a pay cut for a job that is better in every way OR offers a pot of gold like stock options, etc.......there's no reason to do the seppuku.
Luckily, I'm at the point where a flat line of upward trajectory has been the norm, but I'll need to adjust that expectation for my next move for sure.

Definitely need to look at the whole picture. When I got the offer yesterday, I was :notbad: at the money, then saw the vacation time and it was half of where I'm at now. :wat: Went to instant :flaccid: that's why the money's so good.

Told the recruiter I was fine with everything, but the vacation was a bummer. Asked to be put at the vacation level of someone who's been there for 5-10 years (which is 2 days less than I have now, and lines up with the experience I'm bringing), and she said "not a problem". She sent an appendix letter signed by their HR department promising the extra days even though the system won't show it when I get there. Legit.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Ooo, career chat is back!

I got word that the CFO approved my boss's recommendations for raises this year, waiting on confirmation on amounts and incentive payout amounts. :notsure:
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Apex wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:04 pm Ooo, career chat is back!

I got word that the CFO approved my boss's recommendations for raises this year, waiting on confirmation on amounts and incentive payout amounts. :notsure:
Sweet! Here's hoping it's solid!
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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troyguitar wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:07 pm A bird in the hand is worth two in the hypothetical future.

:gtfo:

:doit:
:dat:

lot of good advice.

Food for thought, You know how many executive level people job ship/job hop into new rolls? Its all notches of experience. If you climb the ladder fast and maintain good contacts at other places, job doors stay open. As long as you are going UP and not backwards, I see no issue with leaving a stale job. Its their job as employer make you want to work there.

In my/our industry or engineer/design roles, you MUST leave to get meaningful advancements/raises. This is also how you learn more or different/betters way of doing. The unicorn or good ole job reliability same company for 20 years just aint there. If you truely are an immeasurable value, they would always look at hiring your back. Hell, he would have tried to increase pay right then and there from my experience. if you leave, you will get a new outlook and hopefully grow new skills.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:02 pm
Desertbreh wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:50 pm

Right but looking at your career as requiring a flat line of upwards trajectory is...............crazy? So you got paid more than "market"......that should either motivate you to stay where you are knowing how you or being treated OR objectively weigh the benefits of another job which outweigh the pay.....experience, environment, on and on. I mean, you guys are fucking freemen. If taking a pay cut for a job that is better in every way OR offers a pot of gold like stock options, etc.......there's no reason to do the seppuku.
Luckily, I'm at the point where a flat line of upward trajectory has been the norm, but I'll need to adjust that expectation for my next move for sure.

Definitely need to look at the whole picture. When I got the offer yesterday, I was :notbad: at the money, then saw the vacation time and it was half of where I'm at now. :wat: Went to instant :flaccid: that's why the money's so good.

Told the recruiter I was fine with everything, but the vacation was a bummer. Asked to be put at the vacation level of someone who's been there for 5-10 years (which is 2 days less than I have now, and lines up with the experience I'm bringing), and she said "not a problem". She sent an appendix letter signed by their HR department promising the extra days even though the system won't show it when I get there. Legit.
thats totally dope. :like:
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dubshow wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:08 pm
troyguitar wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:07 pm A bird in the hand is worth two in the hypothetical future.

:gtfo:

:doit:
:dat:

lot of good advice.

Food for thought, You know how many executive level people job ship/job hop into new rolls? Its all notches of experience. If you climb the ladder fast and maintain good contacts at other places, job doors stay open. As long as you are going UP and not backwards, I see no issue with leaving a stale job. Its their job as employer make you want to work there.

In my/our industry or engineer/design roles, you MUST leave to get meaningful advancements/raises. This is also how you learn more or different/betters way of doing. The unicorn or good ole job reliability same company for 20 years just aint there. If you truely are an immeasurable value, they would always look at hiring your back. Hell, he would have tried to increase pay right then and there from my experience. if you leave, you will get a new outlook and hopefully grow new skills.
Yep, you're thinking the way I am.

Though, I didn't expect a counter offer. That's fine by me since money is just one of the considerations for leaving.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:05 pm
Apex wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:04 pm Ooo, career chat is back!

I got word that the CFO approved my boss's recommendations for raises this year, waiting on confirmation on amounts and incentive payout amounts. :notsure:
Sweet! Here's hoping it's solid!
Hope so!

Also, I see no reason why you can't jump ship to :jeep: landia for a few years, stash some bank, then look for somewhere else to live if it really hits the fan. Experience at 2 major corps isn't a bad thing, and in any other industry top level people jump back and forth all the time.
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Apex wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:12 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:05 pm
Sweet! Here's hoping it's solid!
Hope so!

Also, I see no reason why you can't jump ship to :jeep: landia for a few years, stash some bank, then look for somewhere else to live if it really hits the fan. Experience at 2 major corps isn't a bad thing, and in any other industry top level people jump back and forth all the time.
Fingers crossed for you dude!

I don't see how having two highly recognizable brands on my resume could ever hurt me, but it's very likely that I have to write off my current company...which gives me just a bit of pause. I guess it is what it is.

Ideally, I'd like out of auto at some point. That's probably my next move.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:14 pm
Apex wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:12 pm

Hope so!

Also, I see no reason why you can't jump ship to :jeep: landia for a few years, stash some bank, then look for somewhere else to live if it really hits the fan. Experience at 2 major corps isn't a bad thing, and in any other industry top level people jump back and forth all the time.
Fingers crossed for you dude!

I don't see how having two highly recognizable brands on my resume could ever hurt me, but it's very likely that I have to write off my current company...which gives me just a bit of pause. I guess it is what it is.

Ideally, I'd like out of auto at some point. That's probably my next move.
Thanks dude! I'm hopeful to get something close to what I want in my head. Still gives me plenty of room to grow at my current level, going off of things like glassdoor google searches for salary ranges.

This sounds like a solid out. Put in 5 years at FCA and write your ticket wherever you want. East/West/South, should have plenty of options. Having both GM and FCA for decent time periods on your resume, showing growth, ain't a bad thing.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:14 pm
Apex wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:12 pm

Hope so!

Also, I see no reason why you can't jump ship to :jeep: landia for a few years, stash some bank, then look for somewhere else to live if it really hits the fan. Experience at 2 major corps isn't a bad thing, and in any other industry top level people jump back and forth all the time.
Fingers crossed for you dude!

I don't see how having two highly recognizable brands on my resume could ever hurt me, but it's very likely that I have to write off my current company...which gives me just a bit of pause. I guess it is what it is.

Ideally, I'd like out of auto at some point. That's probably my next move.
You've mentioned that before, which is another reason why I think this move is a good one.

You have smart plans for the extra money, live at your current budget, then in 3-5 years if you take a paycut jumping out of auto, you'll still be living stress free financially.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:14 pm

Ideally, I'd like out of auto at some point. That's probably my next move.
I hear there is an engineering mangers position open soon in philly
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Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:29 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:14 pm

Ideally, I'd like out of auto at some point. That's probably my next move.
I hear there is an engineering mangers position open soon in philly
:nope:
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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SAWCE wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:23 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:14 pm
Fingers crossed for you dude!

I don't see how having two highly recognizable brands on my resume could ever hurt me, but it's very likely that I have to write off my current company...which gives me just a bit of pause. I guess it is what it is.

Ideally, I'd like out of auto at some point. That's probably my next move.
You've mentioned that before, which is another reason why I think this move is a good one.

You have smart plans for the extra money, live at your current budget, then in 3-5 years if you take a paycut jumping out of auto, you'll still be living stress free financially.
We're currently rolling around the idea of banking the next 3-5 years then fucking off to somewhere warm with a cheaper cost of living like TN or something. Just do basic work at an advertising agency or something with a house paid for in cash...not a bad way to go.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:30 pm
SAWCE wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:23 pm

You've mentioned that before, which is another reason why I think this move is a good one.

You have smart plans for the extra money, live at your current budget, then in 3-5 years if you take a paycut jumping out of auto, you'll still be living stress free financially.
We're currently rolling around the idea of banking the next 3-5 years then fucking off to somewhere warm with a cheaper cost of living like TN or something. Just do basic work at an advertising agency or something with a house paid for in cash...not a bad way to go.
Livin' the dream there, breh. Livin' the dream.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:30 pm
SAWCE wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:23 pm

You've mentioned that before, which is another reason why I think this move is a good one.

You have smart plans for the extra money, live at your current budget, then in 3-5 years if you take a paycut jumping out of auto, you'll still be living stress free financially.
We're currently rolling around the idea of banking the next 3-5 years then fucking off to somewhere warm with a cheaper cost of living like TN or something. Just do basic work at an advertising agency or something with a house paid for in cash...not a bad way to go.
:fuckyeah: My dad wants to sell his old house in California City if you want really cheap :lol:
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